NZ B team, the poor guys who didn't quite make it

[Larksea]

A lot of depth in NZ rugby, best it's been since the player exodus post 2007 WC

This is my NZ B Team!

1, MacIntosh - back to his best this year after an injury break. huge pick and go. Former All Black
2, Jason Rutledge - Form & Experience, good core skills and a tyreless defender.
3, Tialata - Imporved form a bit lately, just not enough compared to the red hot franks brothers.
4, Chris Jack - Big guy, big on experience. Would not take a backwards step to any international lock.
5, Josh Bekhuis - Great young lock, should be an All Black at some point.
6, Vito - Only just missed out in the current squad. huge potential though - should be an all black again at some point.
7, George Whitelock - Leadership, Experience, size & hard work.
8, Bourke - Lots of skills and leadership, linking skills
9, Leonard - back to his best before his current injury. unlucky not to be in the squad. IMO the form 9 of the ITM cup - head clash hurt his chance of a tour spot for sure.
10, Slade - Edges out Cruden because of his slightly superior kicking.
11, Guildford - He will be an all black again, improving form, Great all round skills and never has a bad game.
12, Ben Smith - total package player, he would be in my All Black Squad.
13, Robbie Fruen - Guy is a machine, nuf said. Will likely only have a short rugby carrier though, shame.
14, Savea - Future All Black. u20 player of the year.
15, Nai Nai Williams - Young, Huge array of skills and so hard to tackle. Potential Future AB.

16, Mega - tough mother, just needs to improve his lineout work to become an All Black Regular.
17, Toby Smith - This kid is a future All Black IMO. Impressive dude.
18, Issac Ross - Lots of skills and ability to make impact off the bench.
19, Carl Lowe - Strong hard arse, impact ability.
20, barlow - u20 WC winning halfback, huge future.
21, Cruden - kicking holding him back a bit but he has talent and impact.
22, Rene Ranger - Because he can catch balls even when they come at his back.

Great team, if it was given good coaching and time to gel - no reason why it couldn't beat anyone! Obviously misses the test experience of the Core AB's (apart from Chris Jack) but sure has the ability.

 

[dan the man]

I really think that guys like Aled deMalmanche, Isaac Ross, Zac Guilford, Nai Nai Williams, Victor Vito, George Whitelock and Aaron Cruden will make their mark in the years to come... it really depends on who hangs around after 2011, guys like Woodcock, Mealamu, Thorn, McCaw, Carter and Muliaina will leave pretty big shoes to fill, and you can pretty much guarantee that most of them wont be around after the World Cup...

But the future looks pretty bright with the number of stars in the wings... Waiting in the wings is probably good for them, it'll make them hungry for the black jersey.

 

[Darwin]

Definitely a good amount of depth building up again in NZ rugby - especially when we think of the players who are currently unavailable through injury (Corey Flynn, Ali Williams, Peri Weepu, Luke MacAlister, Richard Kahui, Israel Dagg et. al.). I'd have to agree with the majority of the team you suggested - this is who I'd have as my NZ B team:

1. Toby Smith (Got a huge future - On form I would have him ahead of either MacIntosh or Crockett, though MacIntosh has played well this year)
2. Rutledge
3. Tialata (Playing quite well, as is Charlie Faumuina)
4. Jack
5. Eaton (Back from injury now - a toss up between him and Bekhuis for this spot in my mind)
6. Vito
7. Latimer (Still plays consistently well without being outstanding - not much between him Lowe, and George Whitelock in my mind)
8. Bourke (Not a huge fan, but not many other options - So'ioalo has not shown great form (and is currently injured), while Thomson is injured. Plenty of younger players coming through (Nasi Manu, Levave, Saili) but they have yet to really established themselves at Super rugby level yet.
9. Leonard (again not someone I rate that highly, as his strength (his running game) seems to disappear at test match level. He was playing really well for Waikato before his injury though)
10. Slade
11. Zac Guildford (Hasn't been the best year for him, as he seems unsure at times on attack. I have been impressed with the way his distribution skills have improved this year - when he got the ball he used to just put his head down and run, but he seems much more aware of players around him now. He's actually been more a provider than a finisher during this years ITM cup, providing the last pass for at least two tries, and having two tries scored from grubber kicks he put through. Doesn't deserve to be in the AB's on current form, but a big Super 15 season could see him make it into the RWC squad).
12. Benson Stanley (Brillant on defense, and solid on attack. Probably never going to excel at test level, but would never let the side down)
13. Robbie Fruean (Still really worry about his defensive game, so was glad he didn't get picked for the AB's for the tour. Hopefully another year of Super rugby will help him sort out his defensive deficiencies, as he is a phenomenal attacking player)
14. Ranger (unlucky not to be touring with the AB's - still a much better wing than centre at this stage in his career. Wouldn't have Savea anywhere near this team as his general ball skills and defensive work are atrocious - I have no doubt he has the potential to be a superstar in the future, but he needs to do a huge amount of work on basic rugby skills.)
15. Ben Smith (Rate him very highly - Incredible work rate, sets other players up well, good on defense, with a deceptive ability to break the line. His future probably does lie in the midfield, but at this stage I believe fullback his his position. I like the excitement that Nanai- Williams brings to the game on attack, but he's another that needs to work on his defense, as well as his option taking)

16. de Malmanche
17. Charlie Faumuina (can cover both sides)
18. Bekhuis (I really like Bekhuis, as he is a hard working player. Personally I wouldn't have Isaac Ross anywhere near my team - I like my tight-forwards to hit rucks, rather than spend most of their time out in the centres or on the wing.
19. Karl Lowe (I like having a 7 on the bench to exploit tiring teams at the tackle/ruck later in the game)
20. Kahn Fotuali'i (Was very good during the Super 14, with a strong running game. Kerr-Barlow looks to be an exceptional player - I expect him to be in the AB's within a couple of years, but it looks like the RWC may come a year too soon for him)
21. Mike Delany (Really rate him as he does the basics well)
22. Sean Maitland (Big, strong, and very fast. His main issue is that when he gets the ball he seems to forget that he has 14 team mates. I don't rate him as a fullback for that reason, but think he is a very high quality winger)

 

[Sam Owen]

I agree with yous both Larky and Dan. Your 15 have played well in the ITM Larky and I would only add 2 guys Faafili Levave and Matt Luamanu to that 15 but like Dan said their time will come, maybe not all of them but for a lot of them.

Robbie Fruean I thought would make the cut but I guess were just gonna have to wait a little longer. LOL thats the last reason I would like to see Ranger get picked for Larky.

 

[Dizzy]

It's Tim Nanai-Williams.... lol

Anyway my team that missed out would be
1. Mckintosh
2. Coles
3. Tialata
4. Jack
5. Eaton
6. Vito
7. Lowe
8. Lee
9. Fotuali'i
10. Cruden
11. Ranger
12. McAlister
13. Fruean
14. Maitland
15. Nanai-Williams

 

[Larksea]

yeah. Toby smith, IMO he is for sure one of the big future picks of this ITM cup. Been brilliant on the field and he's really been showing Ben May up, and may is no slug. And he's like 22 years old or something?

Just have to make sure Dingo keeps his greasy hands off him, Toby was born in Australia!

yeah maybe I did make a mistake with Nainai at fullback. If not him I'd go for Jared Payne, also think Sean Maitland has had a superb ITM cup, shows a lot more of his skills when he plays 15.

Experience is really the key, so many players only really start to show their ability at international Rugby after 20+ caps.

Actually in a sick kind of way i'm looking forward to seeing the AB's post 2011 World Cup, not that it gets old seeing McCaw, Carter, Thorn, Woody, Hore, Mealamu, Mills & Rokockoko do their thing and win the vast majority of games. But rebuilding again is goign to be a bit more interesting!

 

[nickdnz]

yeah. Toby smith, IMO he is for sure one of the big future picks of this ITM cup. Been brilliant on the field and he's really been showing Ben May up, and may is no slug. And he's like 22 years old or something?

Just have to make sure Dingo keeps his greasy hands off him, Toby was born in Australia!

yeah maybe I did make a mistake with Nainai at fullback. If not him I'd go for Jared Payne, also think Sean Maitland has had a superb ITM cup, shows a lot more of his skills when he plays 15.

Experience is really the key, so many players only really start to show their ability at international Rugby after 20+ caps.

Actually in a sick kind of way i'm looking forward to seeing the AB's post 2011 World Cup, not that it gets old seeing McCaw, Carter, Thorn, Woody, Hore, Mealamu, Mills & Rokockoko do their thing and win the vast majority of games. But rebuilding again is goign to be a bit more interesting!

I see what you mean, but after 2007 it got a little bit miserable, and we still had McCaw and Carter. I'd be interested in seeing the team, but post the RWC it's looking like it's going to be a few hard times ahead.

 

[Tomsey]

22, Rene Ranger - Because he can catch balls even when they come at his back.
QUOTE]

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
Good a reason as any...

 

[Dizzy]

For that reason I'd throw him in the starting line up lol...

 

[Muzzy]

MacIntosh
Rutledge
Tialata
Ross
Andrews
Vito
Hoeata
Lee
Moa
Slade
Ranger
McAlister
Fruean
Savea (i honestly thought he would be in the team)
Maitland

Ben Smith
Cruden
Caine
Coles
J. Schwalger
Jack
Kolomaitangi

 

[Geoff_]

J.schwalger
D. Coles
Tialata
Ross
Ali williams?
Vito
Karle Lowe
M. Luamanu (exceptional ITM cup form)
Leonard
Slade
Ranger
Mcalister
Fruean
Kahui
Maitland

 

[Black Heart]

The depth of kiwi rugby is huge. Here's 3 starting line ups alone:

ALL BLACKS
1. Tony Woodcock
2. Kevin Mealamu
3. Owen Franks
4. Sam Whitelock
5. Brad Thorn
6. Jerome Kaino
7. Richie McCaw
8. Kieran Read
9. Piri Weepu
10. Dan Carter
11. Hosea Gear
12. Ma'a Nonu
13. Conrad Smith
14. Cory Jane
15. Mils Muliaina

16. Andrew Hore
17. Ben Franks
18. Tom Donnely
19. Liam Messam
20. Alby Mattewson
21. Colin Slade
22. Sonny Bill Williams


ALL BLACKS B
1. Jamie MackIntosh
2. Corey Flinn
3. John Afoa
4. Jason Eaton
5. Issac Ross
6. Victor Vito
7. Daniel Braid
8. Colin Bourke
9. Jimmy Cowan
10. Aaron Cruden
11. Zac Guildford
12. Richard Kahui
13. Robbie Fruen
14. Rene Ranger
15. Israel Dagg

16. Hikawera Elliot
17. Neemia Tialata
18. Josh Bekhuis
19. Matt Todd
20. Bredon Leonard
21. Stephen Brett
22. Isaia Toeava


ALL BLACKS C
1. John Schwalger
2. Aled Demalmace
3. Toby Smith
4. Chris Jack
5. Jeremy Thrush
6. Onosai'i Auva'a
7. Tanerau Latimer
8. Rodney So'oialo
9. Andy Ellis
10. Luke McAlistar
11. Sitiveni Sivivatu
12. Benson Stanley
13. Dwayne Sweeny
14. Joe Rokocoko
15. Tim Nainai-Williams

16. Jason Rutledge
17. Clint Newland
18. George Whitelock
19. Scott Waldrom
20. Chris Smylie
21. Willie Ripia
22. Robbie Robinson

 

[Black Heart]

J.schwalger
D. Coles
Tialata
Ross
Ali williams?
Vito
Karle Lowe
M. Luamanu (exceptional ITM cup form)
Leonard
Slade
Ranger
Mcalister
Fruean
Kahui
Maitland

Kahui and Fruen would probably work well together. But I would swap the jerseys

 

[Larksea]

The depth of kiwi rugby is huge. Here's 3 starting line ups alone:

ALL BLACKS
1. Tony Woodcock
2. Kevin Mealamu
3. Owen Franks
4. Sam Whitelock
5. Brad Thorn
6. Jerome Kaino
7. Richie McCaw
8. Kieran Read
9. Piri Weepu
10. Dan Carter
11. Hosea Gear
12. Ma'a Nonu
13. Conrad Smith
14. Cory Jane
15. Mils Muliaina

16. Andrew Hore
17. Ben Franks
18. Tom Donnely
19. Liam Messam
20. Alby Mattewson
21. Colin Slade
22. Sonny Bill Williams


ALL BLACKS B
1. Jamie MackIntosh
2. Corey Flinn
3. John Afoa
4. Jason Eaton
5. Issac Ross
6. Victor Vito
7. Daniel Braid
8. Colin Bourke
9. Jimmy Cowan
10. Aaron Cruden
11. Zac Guildford
12. Richard Kahui
13. Robbie Fruen
14. Rene Ranger
15. Israel Dagg

16. Hikawera Elliot
17. Neemia Tialata
18. Josh Bekhuis
19. Matt Todd
20. Bredon Leonard
21. Stephen Brett
22. Isaia Toeava


ALL BLACKS C
1. John Schwalger
2. Aled Demalmace
3. Toby Smith
4. Chris Jack
5. Jeremy Thrush
6. Onosai'i Auva'a
7. Tanerau Latimer
8. Rodney So'oialo
9. Andy Ellis
10. Luke McAlistar
11. Sitiveni Sivivatu
12. Benson Stanley
13. Dwayne Sweeny
14. Joe Rokocoko
15. Tim Nainai-Williams

16. Jason Rutledge
17. Clint Newland
18. George Whitelock
19. Scott Waldrom
20. Chris Smylie
21. Willie Ripia
22. Robbie Robinson

interesting, Joe Rokocoko only good enough to be in NZ's C team? And Donald & Delany aren't good enough anywhere? And Brett & Ripia are even though they struggle at super level some times.

Not a bad effort though

 

[Black Heart]

interesting, Joe Rokocoko only good enough to be in NZ's C team? And Donald & Delany aren't good enough anywhere? And Brett & Ripia are even though they struggle at super level some times.

Not a bad effort though

1. Rokocoko is passed his time. I rate Guildford and Ranger higher with their youth.

2. I think Brett has more potential over Delany but that's just a personal opinion. And I gave McAlistar the benifit of the doubt over Donald because even he hasn't screwed international tests up so badly on virtually every occasion.

 

[Sam Owen]

1. Rokocoko is passed his time. I rate Guildford and Ranger higher with their youth.

Joe is more powerful and goes forward better than Zac IMO. Joe also has experience and a higher workrate.

 

[nickdnz]

1. Rokocoko is passed his time. I rate Guildford and Ranger higher with their youth.

2. I think Brett has more potential over Delany but that's just a personal opinion. And I gave McAlistar the benifit of the doubt over Donald because even he hasn't screwed international tests up so badly on virtually every occasion.

Disagree with both these. Rokocoko is far better than Guildford. Guildford is the most over rated winger in New Zealand, and Rene Ranger isn't really quick enough to be a winger in my opinion, he's a much better center. Rokocoko has over 60 tests and 45 international tries, while only being 27. He's hardly past it, especially considering Cory Jane is older than him. He's also, as Sam mentioned, got a very good work rate.

I rate Delany and McAlister as better 1st 5/8ths than Stephen Brett, who has to be the least consistant 1st 5/8th in New Zealand.

 

[squirrel]

i think rocketman is past it regardless of age, he hasnt really improved as a player

 

[Black Heart]

Disagree with both these. Rokocoko is far better than Guildford. Guildford is the most over rated winger in New Zealand, and Rene Ranger isn't really quick enough to be a winger in my opinion, he's a much better center. Rokocoko has over 60 tests and 45 international tries, while only being 27. He's hardly past it, especially considering Cory Jane is older than him. He's also, as Sam mentioned, got a very good work rate.

I like Guildford because of the potential he possess and his youth. Like I said, it's just a personal preferance. I'd also prefer Elliot over Hore for the same reason though obviously I'm a bit of a lone duck in that reguard.

You're right about Ranger being a better centre than winger, but I just wanted to fit him into the same starting 15 as Fruen. It was a similar situation when Rico Gear was in the All Blacks. I think he would've made an excellent centre because of the style of his play.

And I was refering to Rokocoko's current performance rather than his age. He's nothing on what he used to be and the youth avaliable looks far more promising as an alternative IMO.

 

[Black Heart]

Joe is more powerful and goes forward better than Zac IMO. Joe also has experience and a higher workrate.

I think Rok's has required to lift his workrate and his hunger for the ball because of the competition from players like Gear and co. It was the same situation when he was selected last year and was on the verge of missing the cut because the coaches wanted to see him more involved.