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International Test Matches
New Zealand as World Champions need to change themselves
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<blockquote data-quote="Melhor Time" data-source="post: 466492" data-attributes="member: 20116"><p>I agree NZ has loads of depth there. I even said so. I was making two separate points. 1. Despite having depth the players weren´t used. 2. Despite having loads of talented options there is still not 20 players of note. Now, if we can see that a position of depth, like wing, lacks 20 players then, clearly, elsewhere it will be tought to make a list of two players per position per team of note. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>20 locks of quality in New Zealand is a hard act. The contrast between wing and secondrow is huge and since its hard to say New Zealand has trouble producing 20 notable wingers then secondrow is all that harder. The task is even tougher when removing Kahui, Williams, Dagg and Jane.</p><p></p><p>I doubt Galarza would say no. He signed a half season contract in 2010-2011 with Leinster and was often the sies fourth choice player. He´d make any NZ Super Rugby team as the fourth choice or above. The Chiefs, with not much in this department as you point out, may even start him. Trust me, if the Crusaders offered him a contract matching what Kennedy got, he´d take it.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Nobody is saying O´Donnell is not a good player. Its the same as Ross Kennedy, Brad Mika and so many others. The player´s ability is not in question. They are all good - but there are better guys on the market. Imhoff leaped ahead of the highest points-scoring Puma in France, MartÃn Bustos Moyano to get a place in the World Cup. Bustos Moyano saw Montpellier win the barage play-off vs Castres and then the Top 14 Semi Final vs Racing Metro. Yet, Argentina went for Imhoff who has the gas. Good tries vs both Georgia and Romania at the World Cup. He was used on the bench as Agulla and Camacho started - both holding down starting positions last season for leading English clubs Leicester and Harlequins. </p><p></p><p>What Smartcooky has pointed out in relation to this is that English players miss out with imports starting and he fears it could impact the All Blacks and so does not approve of the status quo changing. Thats a fair argument. But I am not saying the Super Rugby sides would be dominanted by imported players. As he has documented the rule is for two foreigners in a squad. I think that maybe a limit of two or three in a match day XV is acceptable but a squad of 30 or more players should be able to have more. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>and here lies the problem. Racing Metro signed him but the same situation surely applies? What it tells me is that a French side is far more likely to go after a potential international player of the future than a New Zealand side. This line of thinking is, to me, what is helping Rugby World Cup´s so much. Georgia´s eight year improvement from 2003-2011 is off the charts. In 2003 Samoa, South Africa and England were all far too good for the Lelos. In 2011 Scotland couldn´t score a try against then, they gave Argentina a tough match and completed a good win vs Romania. England got a good win but by far less than the 2003 clash.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I don´t get why people come along here to talk like this. </p><p></p><p>In terms of the players selected for the World Cup. Nobody said they were weak or challenged their ability to fit into the position. I, myself, pointed out that New Zealand probably has the most depth of all sides at wing. Now, I asked Nick to produce a list of 20 wingers good enough for Super Rugby contracts simply to illustrate my own point. Namely, despite having lots of talent there are not 20 guys better than Juan Imhoff. </p><p></p><p> </p><p></p><p>Given that there are 5 teams requiring two players per position then New Zealand needs 20 wingers of quality for its teams. I don´t think that the country has the number of players required and thus imports are the solution. France certainly doesn´t nor does England and they get around the problem by importing players. </p><p></p><p>Imports have significantly increased the quality of rugby in general across the old continent. 10 years ago Super Rugby was clearly better, with breathing space, than the Heineken Cup. Those days are gone. Sicdes without so many imports have benefitted from playing against improved opposition which has made for a much improved level and as such the test teams are improved, with the exception of Scotland. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Sure. Patricio Albacete is better than all New Zealand secondrowers. Manuel Carizza, a Heineken Cup finalist, would hold down a starting spot in Super Rugby. Galarza is of the standard to get a contract as is Tomas Vallejos who plays for Harlequins. They were the four Pumas at the World Cup.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>and I sure hope that Argentina change this. - I´ve been waning then to play, if possible, one of Fiji, Samoa and Tonga during the Four Nations (The Rugby Championship) when the teams have the weekend off for a bye. 15 September 2012 is such an example. </p><p></p><p>But given that Los Pumas play Chile and Uruguay every year and will also, starting in 2012, be playing Brazil annually I think the country is fine from a regional perspective. Five All Blacks tests vs Tonga is a low number compared to Argentina´s 33 vs Chile and 35 vs Uruguay. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>If Samoa can´t host the match at home they should go for one of Hong Kong, Dubai or Emirates Stadium (London). Larger venues and likely to be more profitable. I´d try it if I were working for Samoan rugby and a home test was deemed a no-go.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>The team with the most players based in New Zealand is Tonga. </p><p></p><p>53% of Tonga´s squad play in Europe compared to 26.6% in New Zealand</p><p></p><p>33.3% of Samoa´s RWC squad play in England. 23.3% play in France. In comparison 16.6% play in New Zealand.</p><p></p><p>66.6% of Argentina´s squad play in France and 20% play in England.</p><p></p><p>30% of Fiji´s squad are based in France and 20% in the UK. 13.3% of Fiji´s squad play in New Zealand. </p><p></p><p>40% of the USA squad are based in France, Italy and England. 1 player in Japan (Clever) and 1 in New Zealand (Paterson).</p><p></p><p>23.3% of Canada´s squad are based in England, 6.7% in France and a player i each of Scotland and Wales.</p><p></p><p>76.6% of Georgia´s squad are based in France.</p><p></p><p>Point two is off topic and point three is irrelevent. The coaches were contracted and paid.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Melhor Time, post: 466492, member: 20116"] I agree NZ has loads of depth there. I even said so. I was making two separate points. 1. Despite having depth the players weren´t used. 2. Despite having loads of talented options there is still not 20 players of note. Now, if we can see that a position of depth, like wing, lacks 20 players then, clearly, elsewhere it will be tought to make a list of two players per position per team of note. 20 locks of quality in New Zealand is a hard act. The contrast between wing and secondrow is huge and since its hard to say New Zealand has trouble producing 20 notable wingers then secondrow is all that harder. The task is even tougher when removing Kahui, Williams, Dagg and Jane. I doubt Galarza would say no. He signed a half season contract in 2010-2011 with Leinster and was often the sies fourth choice player. He´d make any NZ Super Rugby team as the fourth choice or above. The Chiefs, with not much in this department as you point out, may even start him. Trust me, if the Crusaders offered him a contract matching what Kennedy got, he´d take it. Nobody is saying O´Donnell is not a good player. Its the same as Ross Kennedy, Brad Mika and so many others. The player´s ability is not in question. They are all good - but there are better guys on the market. Imhoff leaped ahead of the highest points-scoring Puma in France, MartÃn Bustos Moyano to get a place in the World Cup. Bustos Moyano saw Montpellier win the barage play-off vs Castres and then the Top 14 Semi Final vs Racing Metro. Yet, Argentina went for Imhoff who has the gas. Good tries vs both Georgia and Romania at the World Cup. He was used on the bench as Agulla and Camacho started - both holding down starting positions last season for leading English clubs Leicester and Harlequins. What Smartcooky has pointed out in relation to this is that English players miss out with imports starting and he fears it could impact the All Blacks and so does not approve of the status quo changing. Thats a fair argument. But I am not saying the Super Rugby sides would be dominanted by imported players. As he has documented the rule is for two foreigners in a squad. I think that maybe a limit of two or three in a match day XV is acceptable but a squad of 30 or more players should be able to have more. and here lies the problem. Racing Metro signed him but the same situation surely applies? What it tells me is that a French side is far more likely to go after a potential international player of the future than a New Zealand side. This line of thinking is, to me, what is helping Rugby World Cup´s so much. Georgia´s eight year improvement from 2003-2011 is off the charts. In 2003 Samoa, South Africa and England were all far too good for the Lelos. In 2011 Scotland couldn´t score a try against then, they gave Argentina a tough match and completed a good win vs Romania. England got a good win but by far less than the 2003 clash. I don´t get why people come along here to talk like this. In terms of the players selected for the World Cup. Nobody said they were weak or challenged their ability to fit into the position. I, myself, pointed out that New Zealand probably has the most depth of all sides at wing. Now, I asked Nick to produce a list of 20 wingers good enough for Super Rugby contracts simply to illustrate my own point. Namely, despite having lots of talent there are not 20 guys better than Juan Imhoff. Given that there are 5 teams requiring two players per position then New Zealand needs 20 wingers of quality for its teams. I don´t think that the country has the number of players required and thus imports are the solution. France certainly doesn´t nor does England and they get around the problem by importing players. Imports have significantly increased the quality of rugby in general across the old continent. 10 years ago Super Rugby was clearly better, with breathing space, than the Heineken Cup. Those days are gone. Sicdes without so many imports have benefitted from playing against improved opposition which has made for a much improved level and as such the test teams are improved, with the exception of Scotland. Sure. Patricio Albacete is better than all New Zealand secondrowers. Manuel Carizza, a Heineken Cup finalist, would hold down a starting spot in Super Rugby. Galarza is of the standard to get a contract as is Tomas Vallejos who plays for Harlequins. They were the four Pumas at the World Cup. and I sure hope that Argentina change this. - I´ve been waning then to play, if possible, one of Fiji, Samoa and Tonga during the Four Nations (The Rugby Championship) when the teams have the weekend off for a bye. 15 September 2012 is such an example. But given that Los Pumas play Chile and Uruguay every year and will also, starting in 2012, be playing Brazil annually I think the country is fine from a regional perspective. Five All Blacks tests vs Tonga is a low number compared to Argentina´s 33 vs Chile and 35 vs Uruguay. If Samoa can´t host the match at home they should go for one of Hong Kong, Dubai or Emirates Stadium (London). Larger venues and likely to be more profitable. I´d try it if I were working for Samoan rugby and a home test was deemed a no-go. The team with the most players based in New Zealand is Tonga. 53% of Tonga´s squad play in Europe compared to 26.6% in New Zealand 33.3% of Samoa´s RWC squad play in England. 23.3% play in France. In comparison 16.6% play in New Zealand. 66.6% of Argentina´s squad play in France and 20% play in England. 30% of Fiji´s squad are based in France and 20% in the UK. 13.3% of Fiji´s squad play in New Zealand. 40% of the USA squad are based in France, Italy and England. 1 player in Japan (Clever) and 1 in New Zealand (Paterson). 23.3% of Canada´s squad are based in England, 6.7% in France and a player i each of Scotland and Wales. 76.6% of Georgia´s squad are based in France. Point two is off topic and point three is irrelevent. The coaches were contracted and paid. [/QUOTE]
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