Itm Cup refs and other area's need to sharpen up

[jawmalawm24]

How can the ball be thrown into a ref and he doesn't blow the whistle WTF!!
There's so many incidents in the game now that I guess we have to get use to. Yes no doubt everybody makes mistakes but than what are refs been paid for if they make very blatant mistakes that the commentators have to debate about for the next few minutes of the game.

If players break the rules they're held accountable which they should be but if refs get it wrong they're not held accountable it's a you win some you lose some situation put up with it Sure sometimes refs get put on the sideline but they should start fining the ******** so they won't make silly bad mistakes again.

There was an incident during one of the games where it took the ref 1.30min just to a scrum sorted because he had to keep resetting it. His calls were all out of time like crouch.........touch.......................pause...engage. It's no wonder why the players can't get on with playing Rugby when the refs f#@!ing it up.

 

[TRF_woosaah]

I totally agree with some of your comments....

i didnt see the game where the ref got hit with the ball so i cant comment on that one.

the scrum, shocking, the canterbury game the players couldnt gauge when he was going to say engage. he was all over the place it should all be crouch....touch....pause....engage all in time.

I did see the referee over rule an in touch in the canterbury game, shocking call where maitland took the ball out and passed it. that was just wrong.

 

[ranger]

The worst decision of the week has to be giving out two yellow cards to one team for a pretty innocuous punch up.
The Taranaki hooker throws a punch, some Waikato players retaliate, noone gets hurt and its really just a handbags situation. Then the referee shows two yellow cards to Waikato! it was a 7 point deficit at that stage and a real exciting matchup untill that point, when it became 13 vs 15 it soured the match a bit.

The referees really need to get their **** sorted, i think the fault really lies with the IRB and NZRU who keep changing the damn rules all the time. There should be a more cast iron set standard as to what deserves a yellow and what doesn't (I know there sort of is, but too much is left to the referees discretion at the moment).
Also while we are on the topic, why the hell cant referees use the video ref to take another look at infringements before giving out a yellow? I would say that a card effects a match more than a single try. Why cant a referee say, "I'm thinking of showing a yellow card to Drew Mitchell for a late off the ball hit, can you confirm that this is the appropriate action?" Even just letting the referee look at the video screen at the ground to get another look at who started a fight. There was also that farcial situation in the trinations this year when the referee wanted to send off an All Black for ruck infringements but couldn't because he didnt get the number of the player and didnt want to send the wrong guy off, so the All Blacks got away without being carded. Why cant the referee ask the video ref to see who that player was?

 

[Muzzy]

i think most of them are new referees too,

 

[smartcooky]

The worst decision of the week has to be giving out two yellow cards to one team for a pretty innocuous punch up.
The Taranaki hooker throws a punch, some Waikato players retaliate, noone gets hurt and its really just a handbags situation. Then the referee shows two yellow cards to Waikato! it was a 7 point deficit at that stage and a real exciting matchup untill that point, when it became 13 vs 15 it soured the match a bit.

It was the Assistant Referee's call. Once he said "punches to the head" and recommended yellow card, there was little the referee could do other than give out the yellows.

In fact, one of the Waikato players, not Messam the other one, (#4 I think) was very lucky not to get a Red card. He punched the player twice while still standing, then when the player went down, he stood over him and kept punching him (another five times by my count). That is a mandatory red card in any referee's book.

The referees really need to get their **** sorted, i think the fault really lies with the IRB and NZRU who keep changing the damn rules all the time. There should be a more cast iron set standard as to what deserves a yellow and what doesn't (I know there sort of is, but too much is left to the referees discretion at the moment).

There is. As I said, a punch to the head is "attacking the head" and a yellow card.

Liam Messam ought to have known better. Often when punches get thrown, the initial punch isn't seen but draws the attention of the official, and its the retaliation that is clearly seen. The moral of the story is...

DONT RETALIATE!!!

Also while we are on the topic, why the hell cant referees use the video ref to take another look at infringements before giving out a yellow? I would say that a card effects a match more than a single try. Why cant a referee say, "I'm thinking of showing a yellow card to Drew Mitchell for a late off the ball hit, can you confirm that this is the appropriate action?" Even just letting the referee look at the video screen at the ground to get another look at who started a fight. There was also that farcial situation in the trinations this year when the referee wanted to send off an All Black for ruck infringements but couldn't because he didnt get the number of the player and didnt want to send the wrong guy off, so the All Blacks got away without being carded. Why cant the referee ask the video ref to see who that player was?

Because he isn't allowed to. The TMO protocols don't allow it. That doesn't mean I don't agree with you. I believe that ALL player dismissals should be checked by the TMO to at least verify that the right player is sent and for the right reasons

This was trialled in the Currie Cup two seasons ago, and dropped because it caused long delays on top of the other uses of the TMO. Matches were sometimes running 20-30 minutes overtime.

 

[ranger]

It was the Assistant Referee's call. Once he said "punches to the head" and recommended yellow card, there was little the referee could do other than give out the yellows.

In fact, one of the Waikato players, not Messam the other one, (#4 I think) was very lucky not to get a Red card. He punched the player twice while still standing, then when the player went down, he stood over him and kept punching him (another five times by my count). That is a mandatory red card in any referee's book.

The referees really need to get their **** sorted, i think the fault really lies with the IRB and NZRU who keep changing the damn rules all the time. There should be a more cast iron set standard as to what deserves a yellow and what doesn't (I know there sort of is, but too much is left to the referees discretion at the moment).

There is. As I said, a punch to the head is "attacking the head" and a yellow card.

Liam Messam ought to have known better. Often when punches get thrown, the initial punch isn't seen but draws the attention of the official, and its the retaliation that is clearly seen. The moral of the story is...

DONT RETALIATE!!!

Because he isn't allowed to. The TMO protocols don't allow it. That doesn't mean I don't agree with you. I believe that ALL player dismissals should be checked by the TMO to at least verify that the right player is sent and for the right reasons

This was trialled in the Currie Cup two seasons ago, and dropped because it caused long delays on top of the other uses of the TMO. Matches were sometimes running 20-30 minutes overtime.

Im not some sour grape supporter here, i played all my age group rugby for Taranaki and my parents still live there. I'm just saying that from an unbiased perspective, sending two players off from the same team for a two sided fight is ridiculous. If punches to the face are an automatic yellow (which i dont wholly agree with but hey) then why wasn't Corlett sent off for starting it? 14 vs 14 would have been fair and wouldn't have given one team the advantage. It wasn't as if it was a situation where you had to get players off the field before things erupted, tempers were raised, they had a punchup and then everyone settled down, situation over.

I also realize that the referee isn't allowed to use the video referee in that situation, give me some credit. The question i was asking is why not? There is an argument that it would lengthen games, but if it was only used to double check before a referee showed a card then i cant see it being used very often. Not often enough to lengthen a game by half an hour anyway

 

[jawmalawm24]

Probably using the TMO camera's more often would put the cost up too. Apparently they were dropped last season in the Anz Cup because of the recession so they saved $200,000 by having no TMO's. Now they've brought them back and they still can't get it right.

That Maitland sideline incident was a shocker the ref overuled the touchie which he shouldn't have and said to one of the Harbour players that he just did a quick throw in. Everyone saw that Maitland caught the ball than stepped out no doubt about it. They got away with that one when Ellis did a quick throw in against the Canes this year too leading to a crucial try. So maybe the communication between the touchies and the ref need's a bit of sorting out too.

 

[smartcooky]

Ranger

You are right to point out that the Taranaki man should have gone to the bin as well, however, it was plain that neither the referee nor either of the AR's saw the initial punch; all they saw was the retaliation, so that is all they could report on. Referees are not allowed to act on what they think might have happened. Like I said earlier, the retaliation is the thing that does get seen, so it plays not to retaliate.

I dare say if they had your idea of having the referee check with the TMO before issuing a card, perhaps that is what would have happened.

The system they trialled in the Currie Cup didn't just allow the referee to identify players for foul play, it also allowed him to check for forward passes, knock-ons, obstruction and offside in the lead up to a try being scored. All of this is what probably led to matches running overtime, but unfortunately, when they stopped the trial, they rejected everything... a bit like throwing the baby out with the bathwater. Senseless if you ask me.

 

[candybum]

Is it me or are the referee's dragging the 'pause' phase in the scrum a little longer than usual?
'crouch'... 'touch'...'pause'............................'engage!'

 

[jawmalawm24]

Our refs are messing with our game. I watch Rugby to see what the players do not the damn refs, they have so much power now that you can train harder than your opposition and the ref can still take the game away from you. Look at League they don't f#@! around they sacked Bill Harrigan for giving that benefit of the doubt try to the Dragons which everyone in the world saw as no try except for him. Why don't we start doing it in Rugby? what would be the negative effects of Rugby dismissing refs for making shocking calls? Exactly absolutely nothing.

 

[Sam Owen]

Dam they sacked Billy Harrigan for that??..I didnt know that. It was blind of him not to see that though. You know he was once regarded as the best referee in League at one stage in his career. He did have some style though for a reff, when I first seen him reffing he had this big beard and short nicely cut, with a part on the side, brylcreamed hair and it didnt go with his big dry brown beard. As time went on he got rid of the beard and then started to grow his hair long and brylcreamed. After all these years Billy has somehow forgotten what a try looks like, I'd give him 'the benefit of the doubt' if he said he pushed the wrong button but that'll be only if the try and BOTD button were the same.

 

[smartcooky]

Our refs are messing with our game. I watch Rugby to see what the players do not the damn refs, they have so much power now that you can train harder than your opposition and the ref can still take the game away from you. Look at League they don't f#@! around they sacked Bill Harrigan for giving that benefit of the doubt try to the Dragons which everyone in the world saw as no try except for him. Why don't we start doing it in Rugby? what would be the negative effects of Rugby dismissing refs for making shocking calls? Exactly absolutely nothing.

First of all, they DO get dismissed, dropped, stood-down and or demoted for poor performances, bad calls or making critical errors. These referees....

Stu Dickinson, James Leckie, Paul Marks, Brett Bowden & Matt Goddard (AUS)
Garrett Williamson, Josh Noonan, James McPhail & Keith Brown (NZL)
Cobus Wessels, Marius Jonker and & Pro Legoete (SAF)

Have all been either stood down, dropped from panels or sanctioned for poor performances in the last 12 months; and those are just the ones I know of from the SANZAR countries.

Here's an idea for you; why not just have no referees at all. Then the players could high tackle, ***** slap, bag-snatch, eye-gouge, bite, kick and punch each other for 80 minutes, and then we (as referees) wouldn't have to put up with their incessant whining about what the opposition players are doing.

With people that carry your attitude, plus the verbal and sometimes physical abuse that we have to put up with, its no wonder we can't get enough volunteers to take up the whistle.

There is a very simple way for players to NOT get yellow carded and not penalised....dont cheat!!! Play the game within the Laws of the Game, then you don't have rely on the referee to judge anything.

Some years ago, I was refereeing Linwood Seniors in the CRFU Club competition. After the match, I was (as was usual) invited back to their Clubrooms for a beer and a chat. During that time, I was accosted by their coach, who wanted to take me to task (in a friendly way) about some of the decisions I had made. They gave me a list of what they considered were "errors" that I had made in the game. I took it on board, and discussed this with my assessor and this is what we did.

He arranged for me to be scheduled to referee the same team the following week, and he attended the match himself. Again, after the match, I was again invited back to the Clubrooms. This time, however, I accosted the coach first, and reminded him about what he had said to me the week before, only this time I handed him a list, compiled by the assessor, of all the mistakes his players had made, complete with jersey numbers and the quantities and types of mistakes. e.g. dropped passes, knock-ons, forward passes, missed tackles, kicks directly into touch etc. It was nearly two sides of a lined A4 refill page. I didn't have to say anything else; the coach understood perfectly!

The moral of this true story is that, despite the fact that everyone want the referee to be a flawless automaton, they are in fact human, and, just like players, they will make mistakes!

 

[jawmalawm24]

Yep I agree we're all human and everyone makes mistakes but 1 ref with get punished for their mistake while a whole team have to suffer the consequences. What happened to Jonathan Kaplan when he allowed Andrew Ellis the quick throw in leading to a try after one of the bench players from the Canes than Conrad Smith touched it? I was also watching a Lions vs Auckland Shield challenge from last season when Fa'atonu Fili scored a clear try but the ref was too slow to get there and he asked his touchies "did you see anything?" now had he asked try or no try it might have been a different story. He than came back to the captain Jacob Ellison telling him "my touchies never saw anything and I didn't see anything so I cannot award the try". Wtf!! Lions just won by 1 point but had they lost it wouldn't have been pretty.

It's not the forward pass, offside calls etc. that get me it's the ones where it clear as days no question about it calls that get me. I'm just saying the refs need to be faster and keep up with play because if you can't award a try because your too slow than there's definately something wrong. Get rid of the 4 stage scrums too, it's killing the scrums and there's too many resets. The timing issue is another the ref has too much control of where it should be the players scrumming not the ref. I was watching a 1995 Nz vs Eng RWC game and you hardly ever hear the ref just his whistle and the scrums were hardly reset.

 

[smartcooky]

Yep I agree we're all human and everyone makes mistakes but 1 ref with get punished for their mistake while a whole team have to suffer the consequences. What happened to Jonathan Kaplan when he allowed Andrew Ellis the quick throw in leading to a try after one of the bench players from the Canes than Conrad Smith touched it? I was also watching a Lions vs Auckland Shield challenge from last season when Fa'atonu Fili scored a clear try but the ref was too slow to get there and he asked his touchies "did you see anything?" now had he asked try or no try it might have been a different story. He than came back to the captain Jacob Ellison telling him "my touchies never saw anything and I didn't see anything so I cannot award the try". Wtf!! Lions just won by 1 point but had they lost it wouldn't have been pretty.

I promise you that the mistakes players make have a lot more effect on the result of a game than the referee. Far more often, matches are lost due to dropped passes or wrong options taken with a the try-line wide open, dropping the ball over the line or missed tackles resulting in tries scored. Here is a well know example... almost every Kiwi rugby fan blames Wayne Barnes for allowing the forward pass that led to France's match-winning try, but no-one ever mentions that McCaw and McAlister missed the tackle on the French fullback Dominic Traille that would have snuffed the try out on the half-way line.

Get rid of the 4 stage scrums too, it's killing the scrums and there's too many resets. The timing issue is another the ref has too much control of where it should be the players scrumming not the ref. I was watching a 1995 Nz vs Eng RWC game and you hardly ever hear the ref just his whistle and the scrums were hardly reset.

I used to think that too, until I saw the statistics on spinal injuries before and after managed scrum engagement came in.

If you wan't to blame anyone for managed engagement, blame the coaches and players. They are the ones who started making the engagement at "hit" rather than simply putting the scrum down. Take a look at this scrum engagement from 1989 Ireland v All Blacks.



The referee hardly has time to get out before the front rows engage.

Returning to this will never happen, and you cannot blame the referees for this. It would require the co-operation of all National Unions, coaches and players, which I guarantee will not be forthcoming.

 

[markshaw]

Ranger

You are right to point out that the Taranaki man should have gone to the bin as well, however, it was plain that neither the referee nor either of the AR's saw the initial punch; all they saw was the retaliation, so that is all they could report on. Referees are not allowed to act on what they think might have happened. Like I said earlier, the retaliation is the thing that does get seen, so it plays not to retaliate.

I dare say if they had your idea of having the referee check with the TMO before issuing a card, perhaps that is what would have happened.

The system they trialled in the Currie Cup didn't just allow the referee to identify players for foul play, it also allowed him to check for forward passes, knock-ons, obstruction and offside in the lead up to a try being scored. All of this is what probably led to matches running overtime, but unfortunately, when they stopped the trial, they rejected everything... a bit like throwing the baby out with the bathwater. Senseless if you ask me.

bro, too be honest if you watch the replay again you might notice that the taranaki hooker threw the 1st punch which messem did not respond to, it wasnt untill the naki hooker threw another that messem replied. Graham deserved his card for jumping in and continuing but messem really didnt have any choice but to defend him self from an assualt. you are right about retaliation and i beleive messem had no choice but too retaliate. all of this being said i agree with you that they cant act on what they think but i rekon the ref should have had more balls yo just dismiss the ar's when he could see the 2 assistants didnt no what the **** they were talking about

 

[Charles]

I wish whoever has the authority would expand the ref swappings like we have between France and England. It'd be good to have Saffers and Kiwi refs here in the North from time to time...

 

[jawmalawm24]

I promise you that the mistakes players make have a lot more effect on the result of a game than the referee. Far more often, matches are lost due to dropped passes or wrong options taken with a the try-line wide open, dropping the ball over the line or missed tackles resulting in tries scored. Here is a well know example... almost every Kiwi rugby fan blames Wayne Barnes for allowing the forward pass that led to France's match-winning try, but no-one ever mentions that McCaw and McAlister missed the tackle on the French fullback Dominic Traille that would have snuffed the try out on the half-way line.
I used to think that too, until I saw the statistics on spinal injuries before and after managed scrum engagement came in.

If you wan't to blame anyone for managed engagement, blame the coaches and players. They are the ones who started making the engagement at "hit" rather than simply putting the scrum down. Take a look at this scrum engagement from 1989 Ireland v All Blacks.



The referee hardly has time to get out before the front rows engage.

Returning to this will never happen, and you cannot blame the referees for this. It would require the co-operation of all National Unions, coaches and players, which I guarantee will not be forthcoming.

Yep I agree with you there on the player mistakes but the examples I've shown are one in many very unquestionable mistakes. Player mistakes are 50/50 these mistakes I've shown have no doubt what so ever it's those that get alot of us fans and that's a big part of why you see our crowds averaging 8000-14,000 when just a few years ago we use to average 20,000+ at the Westpac Stadium.

Never know they keep changing the rules on us all the time I still don't know what rules are being played in the ITM Cup or are the club, ITM Cup, Super Rugby and International rules all the same in Southern Hemisphere? I think the Northern Hemisphere are onto it they just stuck to the old rules.