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European Champions & Challenge Cup
Investec Champions Cup 23/24 - Rd 3
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<blockquote data-quote="Crash Hamster" data-source="post: 1170318" data-attributes="member: 84693"><p>I'm not sure you can discount Saracens' wins, just because they were cheating the salary cap; it was still the same side, whatever they were being paid. If, hypothetically, Saracens had played in the T14, their squad would (I guess) have been completely legal within the salary cap*. Including them, English teams have won half of the last 8 Champions' Cups. If the salary cap had remained optional, maybe Saracens would have won even more.</p><p></p><p>Leinster and La Rochelle have just been particularly good in the last few years; no disgrace in someone producing a better domestic side. Their international teams have done well too (though not at WCs.) Realistically, England should expect to be in the top half of the 6N, with the prospect of doing better if combinations of players who don't play in the same domestic side perform better than the domestic/international combinations of Ireland and France.</p><p></p><p>The 'defence optional' argument is flimsy too; I did spend some time looking at average points conceded in the Top14, Pro14 and Premiership; French sides conceded about 3 points per game less than the other two leagues, who were almost identical. Taking out the obvious whipping boys made little difference to the relative positions either. Obviously Northampton's success this season has been based around improved defence, but it's not as simple as the Prem having a 'gonna score 1 more than you' attitude.</p><p></p><p>England got to the semi finals of the WC with no idea how to attack a Tier 1 side whatsoever, which suggests that players developed in the 'porous' Premiership must be able to defend at international level. Yes it was often dire and desperate, but it just about worked.</p><p></p><p>* probably fail the JIFF regulations</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Crash Hamster, post: 1170318, member: 84693"] I'm not sure you can discount Saracens' wins, just because they were cheating the salary cap; it was still the same side, whatever they were being paid. If, hypothetically, Saracens had played in the T14, their squad would (I guess) have been completely legal within the salary cap*. Including them, English teams have won half of the last 8 Champions' Cups. If the salary cap had remained optional, maybe Saracens would have won even more. Leinster and La Rochelle have just been particularly good in the last few years; no disgrace in someone producing a better domestic side. Their international teams have done well too (though not at WCs.) Realistically, England should expect to be in the top half of the 6N, with the prospect of doing better if combinations of players who don't play in the same domestic side perform better than the domestic/international combinations of Ireland and France. The 'defence optional' argument is flimsy too; I did spend some time looking at average points conceded in the Top14, Pro14 and Premiership; French sides conceded about 3 points per game less than the other two leagues, who were almost identical. Taking out the obvious whipping boys made little difference to the relative positions either. Obviously Northampton's success this season has been based around improved defence, but it's not as simple as the Prem having a 'gonna score 1 more than you' attitude. England got to the semi finals of the WC with no idea how to attack a Tier 1 side whatsoever, which suggests that players developed in the 'porous' Premiership must be able to defend at international level. Yes it was often dire and desperate, but it just about worked. * probably fail the JIFF regulations [/QUOTE]
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Investec Champions Cup 23/24 - Rd 3
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