George North's Concussion

[Which Tyler]

Sorry, I can't remember which thread we were discussing it in; and there's no obvious thread ***les; so I thought I'd start a new one.
IRB feedback: http://www.worldrugby.org/news/215539
Please note, I've only started skim reading it - and it look like my home-made theory about the HIA just being an excuse to assess GN's neck with the HIA being a tick-box formality was pretty close to the mark.

The robust head injury protocols defined within the Tournament Player Welfare Standards were not fully adhered to at the match in question. Prioritisation by the medical staff given to evaluating a potential spinal injury to North, was advanced as the principal reason for the non-compliance of head injury protocols.
The non-application of the protocols resulted in North not being immediately and permanently removed from the field of play as he should have been, without requiring a Head Injury Assessment (HIA).

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

I find it astonishing that Saints seriously thought they could pretend he passed the assessment or wasn't knocked out. Shameful.

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

I find it astonishing that Saints seriously thought they could pretend he passed the assessment or wasn't knocked out. Shameful.

If you've ever seen a player interviewed about the HIA they all state you can pass these easily after being unconscious . That's why they brought in the camera replays, but they weren't working because of tigers crappy wifi.

 

[Which Tyler]

If you've ever seen a player interviewed about the HIA they all state you can pass these easily after being unconscious . That's why they brought in the camera replays, but they weren't working because of tigers crappy wifi.

If you believe that story about the wifi - which the IRB clearly don't; given that tehy don't mention the wifi "issues" at all, but do specifically state that Saints medical staff were busy assessing GN's neck when they should have been carrying out the HIA - which even Saint's medical staff say wasn't completed properly (allegedly because of a completely unprovable wifi issue... and the medic who's one job was to stay put and watch a screen, but went AWOL instead)

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

If you believe that story about the wifi - which the IRB clearly don't; given that tehy don't mention the wifi "issues" at all, but do specifically state that Saints medical staff were busy assessing GN's neck when they should have been carrying out the HIA - which even Saint's medical staff say wasn't completed properly (allegedly because of a completely unprovable wifi issue... and the medic who's one job was to stay put and watch a screen, but went AWOL instead)

Think you're looking for a conspiracy that's not there.

 

[Which Tyler]

That or I'm not defending my club because they're my club and I'm biased.

Which part of my comment do you think isn't true? Did the IRB mention the failed wifi? or did they not mention that the HIA was very much secondary to the neck assessment? or maybe Saints' medical staff haven't said that GN shouldn't have returned to the pitch? or maybe the HIA wasn't rushed after all, merely taking approximately half the usual time despite being a secondary concern.

My criticisms have nothing to do with club loyalties; my concern is for player safety - I've condemned my club in the past (before there even were HIAs) for leaving concussed players on the pitch; and condemned my club in the very same weekend (IIRC) for doing basically the same thing with Taulupe Faletau and using an HIA as an excuse to examine him for a different injury (eye) and not treating the HIA with the respect it deserves. Fortunately in that example, Faletau wasn't concussed, and there was no video evidence that he had lost consciousness.

 

[Which Tyler]

Have to say, generally a good interview with North there, but a little in self-denial
I'm not prone to concussion
I trust my team's advice- anyone not on my team doesn't know what they're talking about because they're not on my team
I see it the same way as the random potential to blow a knee (as opposed to having blown the same knee 3 times in 18 months - let alone that no-one's developed a false brain operation)

It is absolutely his decision to make, but I can't escape the feeling that he's not getting the information he should, whether he's not being given it, or that he's only hearing the information that confirms his bias.... assuming, of course, that it was fully truthful rather than spin to please fans and prevent opponents targeting him.

 

[pagliaccio_euforico]

I think accepting the fact that you've had multiple concussions is a lot scarier than accepting that a certain part of your body has been worn down. Now that players know what can happen from repeated brain injuries it's scary to think their future could be real bleak.

 

[Which Tyler]

I wonder what excuse Glos will use for the Matu'u incident? Disgraceful, and worse than the North one.

They left him on initially, and only took him off later; by definition this means that they reviewed he footage, which means that by definition they knew he doesn't even get an HIA as he's already failed it.

Saints should have had a fine and a points deduction, this was worse, and I can't see any excuse for Glos not to receive the same, with added medical negligence (TJ is is not a missed diagnosis, this is negligent!)

Points deduction will make no difference to Glos this season, but they need the book thrown at them, and I'll have no sympathy at all. Clubs HAVE to stop doing this before someone dies. If anyone thinks that's hyperbolic, have a read on second impact syndrome: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second-impact_syndrome

 

[Every Time Ref]

I wonder what excuse Glos will use for the Matu'u incident? Disgraceful, and worse than the North one.

They left him on initially, and only took him off later; by definition this means that they reviewed he footage, which means that by definition they knew he doesn't even get an HIA as he's already failed it.

Saints should have had a fine and a points deduction, this was worse, and I can't see any excuse for Glos not to receive the same, with added medical negligence (TJ is is not a missed diagnosis, this is negligent!)

Points deduction will make no difference to Glos this season, but they need the book thrown at them, and I'll have no sympathy at all. Clubs HAVE to stop doing this before someone dies. If anyone thinks that's hyperbolic, have a read on second impact syndrome: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second-impact_syndrome

WT, I believe you (amongst others) criticised me on here for being a bit forgiving towards Northampton after the North incident. I've reflected on it since and to be blunt I was wrong - there is no excuse for not protecting players, the club and the doctors (and to a lesser extent the player himself) are seriously at fault and must be punished.

Like you, I want to see points deductions to really ram home a message. This would actually be the perfect time to set a precedent as it wouldn't materially affect Gloucester that much so avoids being a major controversy; however next time when it does affect someone materially they'll have no way of claiming unfairness as they'll have known what to expect.

 

[Mike Rolls]

WT, I believe you (amongst others) criticised me on here for being a bit forgiving towards Northampton after the North incident. I've reflected on it since and to be blunt I was wrong - there is no excuse for not protecting players, the club and the doctors (and to a lesser extent the player himself) are seriously at fault and must be punished.

Like you, I want to see points deductions to really ram home a message. This would actually be the perfect time to set a precedent as it wouldn't materially affect Gloucester that much so avoids being a major controversy; however next time when it does affect someone materially they'll have no way of claiming unfairness as they'll have known what to expect.

Good point
Mike

 

[Which Tyler]

I was outspokenly harsh on Saints (and bath at the same weekend), but I don't remember criticising individuals who were more forgiving, but I could easily be wrong there.

The points deduction​ bit was precisely my point here. No way a reduction will see them relegated, and they're basically already reliant on the Challenge cup to get in the repecharge anyway, so perfect opportunity to send a message, and a message needs to be sent.
If the RFU / IRB don't feel that they can make an example of Glos now, then we might as well bite the bullet and take pitch-side medical care out of the hands of the clubs and have fully independent medical teams for every match.

This would also seem as good an opportunity as any to bring about my pet wish for the RFU: fund an fMRI machine somewhere reasonably central (say Oxford or Rugby), pair up with a university (and PRL), and guarantee priority scans for any player injured on a rugby pitch, and require every Prem player to have an fMRI scan every summer to provide a baseline for that player (or less often once the research is in), with a second fMRI scan as the final step of return to play protocols.
A top-line fMRI scan costs somewhere between £2-3M, with annual overheads around £50k + staffing. Do the research properly, get the knowledge base, make damned sure that no player returns from concussion without being fit to do so. Show willing, spend the money, make the sport safer. You could run that for several decades for approximate cost of 1 court settlement for a player suffering second impact syndrome (that cost could easily exceed £10M - assuming protocols correctly followed and up to date). It makes financial sense, it makes educational/research sense) it makes PR sense, it shows the world that rugby does take this **** seriously, it reduces the chance of death / disability from playing our sport. These are all good things, and IMO well worth a set-up cost of a 1/3 full Twickenham ( hell somewhere like Oxford University would take the costs themselves and think it well worth it just to do the research!)

 

[Which Tyler]

A simple saliva test for concussion? now THIS could be a game-changer... if it works.

Of course, at the elite level, how long before a medic "couldn't find the device" or "the batteries had run out" maybe even "the player couldn't procude 2ml of saliva"?
Yeah, I'm cynical there, who wouldn't be after all the players allowed to play on after the protocols are ignored (North and Matu'u being the most disgraceful cases last season)

http://www.englandrugby.com/news/rfu-back-ground-breaking-concussion-study/
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/sport/rugby-union-to-trial-saliva-test-for-concussions-fkkqcwwpm