franchises are cack

[QLD]

Over the last year I've started to hate the NZ franchises that compete in the s14. I dont understand why in 1996 we got rid of 100 years of tradition to create artificial franchises that are supposed to represent a number of regions but realistically only represent five of the big cities.

Seeing Hawke's Bay and their huge crowds reminded me of the tradition some of these provinces have and I bet more people in NZ are interested in the semi-pro ANZC/NPC than the professional S14

I always thought having an NPC with Australian teams would be great, then let SA revert to its historic Currie Cup. NPC with provinces/states, but the RS remains a NZ thing. Then have a Heinikin sup in the SH like a super cup between Aus, NZ and SA.

 

[shazbooger]

The Welsh and Scots seem to be having the same problem.

The Irish only avoided it as we have the provincial setup and history already in place.

 

[QLD]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Logorrhea @ Dec 21 2009, 09:30 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

The Welsh and Scots seem to be having the same problem.

The Irish only avoided it as we have the provincial setup and history already in place.[/b]

Same with Australia (Queensland, NSW etc). But due to the NZ and SA franchises based on nicknames they are more often referred to as the Waratahs and Reds but I prefer Queensland

I reckon if Wales went back to the nine clubs and had 5 in the magners league more people would be happy.

 

[feicarsinn]

Happy maybe, but within 5 years pro rugby in Wales would be dead. There just isn't the money/fans to support 9 pro teams.

 

[Fa'atau82]

The thing with franchises, is they are what they are. While it may help in certain factors, really.. if you was a Hawke's Bay fan, would you really be interested in how your franchise did, if only maybe 2 of the club players played for the regional franchise? And if you had a minimum intake from every club, the starting XV could suffer.

I would find it odd if Leicester or Harlequins merged into a regional side. It'd just be odd.

 

[Bullitt]

As shown by the Celtic Crusaders fiasco, the Franchises in Super League aren't working either.

 

[William18]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Bullitt @ Dec 28 2009, 11:57 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

As shown by the Celtic Crusaders fiasco, the Franchises in Super League aren't working either.[/b]

The franchise system in Super League is completely different from the franchises in the Super 15. Most of the clubs in the Super League have still been around for over 100 years while the Super 14 teams have been around for 14 years now. I think the franchise system works in the super league if they do it properly. They shouldn't have expanded the competition when they did but the franchise system and expansion are different ideas, IMO.

 

[Bullitt]

The point however is that nobody gives a stuff about especially made "franchises" when there's no history or no connection between the team and the fans like a club has.

It's evident in Wales more then anywhere where nearly nobody watches the regions ML game any more. Worst of all it's killed of the club game and so instead of making it a game of the people, it's had the opposite effect and made the sport even more elitist.

 

[candybum]

Its like 5 all star teams from NZ.

 

[William18]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Bullitt @ Jan 11 2010, 12:28 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

The point however is that nobody gives a stuff about especially made "franchises" when there's no history or no connection between the team and the fans like a club has.

It's evident in Wales more then anywhere where nearly nobody watches the regions ML game any more. Worst of all it's killed of the club game and so instead of making it a game of the people, it's had the opposite effect and made the sport even more elitist.[/b]

Apparently, the Crusaders have greatly increased participation in rugby league in Wales. Made teams can work, the Brisbane Broncos being one example which comes to mind. I believe many Qlders at the time was worried about the effect they would have on the QLD Cup.

Getting rid of the franchises in New Zealand just isn't practical. People here would be violently opposed to a joint NZ-Aus competition. It would mean cutting teams, probably more then 4. The NZRU has already had to back down on that issue. Currently the All Blacks are represented by most of the provinces so franchises are the only way we can make sure all our best players are playing.

 

[stormer2010]

I think SA avoids this problem by our franchises essentially being regional sides with a lot of history and the Currie cup remains very popular where people can see the up-and-commers give it a go. That said, the conference system is essentially a format for Aus to cope with not having a regional championship and devalues the existing SA and NZ regional comps.

I would also prefer greater focus on regional tourneys with a Heineken cup type set-up. For that we would don't have the amount of teams or money, though as the difference in quality between the top and bottom teams in the 14 team format is allready too much to be entertaining.

Best solution IMO would probably be to keep the Super series as is, except have 12 teams and another 12 in a second tier comp with promotion/relegation (based on performances in regional comps in each nation) . That gives the smaller regional teams a window of opportunity and adds drama. For this to work, Aus need a dedicated regional competition much like the Currie cup or ANZC.

 

[Woldog]

Alot of you guys seem to ignore the fact money doesn't grow on trees.....

 

[QLD]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Fa'atau82 @ Dec 28 2009, 08:53 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

The thing with franchises, is they are what they are. While it may help in certain factors, really.. if you was a Hawke's Bay fan, would you really be interested in how your franchise did, if only maybe 2 of the club players played for the regional franchise? And if you had a minimum intake from every club, the starting XV could suffer.

I would find it odd if Leicester or Harlequins merged into a regional side. It'd just be odd.[/b]

Exactly. Imagine if Leicester and Northampton merged to become the franchise region the Midlands Broncos. Or Bath and Bristol into West Coast Magpies. Or something cack

in NZ, ratings and crowds were down for super rugby. in the NPC tv ratings were up 88% and crowds were bigger. Says it all really, imagine if the NPC had the All Blacks playing week in week out.

 

[Bullitt]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (William18 @ Jan 12 2010, 05:30 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Bullitt @ Jan 11 2010, 12:28 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The point however is that nobody gives a stuff about especially made "franchises" when there's no history or no connection between the team and the fans like a club has.

It's evident in Wales more then anywhere where nearly nobody watches the regions ML game any more. Worst of all it's killed of the club game and so instead of making it a game of the people, it's had the opposite effect and made the sport even more elitist.[/b]

Apparently, the Crusaders have greatly increased participation in rugby league in Wales. Made teams can work, the Brisbane Broncos being one example which comes to mind. I believe many Qlders at the time was worried about the effect they would have on the QLD Cup.[/b][/quote]

Yeah, they've increased attendences of RL in Wales by approximately 1Billion-Trillion%... Because there' are a whopping 6,000 people going to watch them when before their existence there was a whopping 0 people watching Rugby League in the whole <strike>country</strike> principality before their inception. We'll forget the fact a large bulk of them however are Pontypridd RFC and Bridgend RFC fans who were short changed when Celtic Warriors went bust and were left with no "top-fight" rugby to watch at all.

 

[William18]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Dale @ Jan 13 2010, 12:25 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Fa'atau82 @ Dec 28 2009, 08:53 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The thing with franchises, is they are what they are. While it may help in certain factors, really.. if you was a Hawke's Bay fan, would you really be interested in how your franchise did, if only maybe 2 of the club players played for the regional franchise? And if you had a minimum intake from every club, the starting XV could suffer.

I would find it odd if Leicester or Harlequins merged into a regional side. It'd just be odd.[/b]

Exactly. Imagine if Leicester and Northampton merged to become the franchise region the Midlands Broncos. Or Bath and Bristol into West Coast Magpies. Or something cack

in NZ, ratings and crowds were down for super rugby. in the NPC tv ratings were up 88% and crowds were bigger. Says it all really, imagine if the NPC had the All Blacks playing week in week out.
[/b][/quote]
Well, a merger is very different to a franchise. Everyone knows that the Hurricanes are a Wellington team who use players from the whole of the lower north island. It's not really like combining two teams. The Hurricanes are really the same as Wellington in all but name. I don't the current system is great but I don't see a better alternative. A combined ANZC and Australian competition would mean that we would have to cut some of our provinces. I don't have a problem with that but the vast majority of rugby supporters in New Zealand do. The NZRU won't do it either.

 

[dullonien]

It's probably the only way forward though! Speaking from my Welsh perspective on regional rugby here in Wales, it HAD to happen. Rugby here in Wales simply could not support 9 seperate clubs. So either a few clubs were scrapped (really ******* off many supporters), or Regions were formed (******* off everyone to a lesser extent). The Ospreys have shown how it can be successful. Their attendances have been a little on the low side recently, but don't underestimate the effect of the economy or the fact they were appalling to watch at the beggining of the season.

There isn't the potential for fans like say Leinster have in irelend, being the major sporting team in a City of 1million +, but if teams play well, support will follow. Munster and Leinster are again perfect examples of this, with their success on the European stage certainly drawing the crowds.

As I said, it's gotta be done. Just give it more time, they'll soon create their own history, and in 50 years time, no-one will remember the hard begginings.

 

[Thingimubob]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (dullonien @ Jan 13 2010, 12:32 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

It's probably the only way forward though! Speaking from my Welsh perspective on regional rugby here in Wales, it HAD to happen. Rugby here in Wales simply could not support 9 seperate clubs. So either a few clubs were scrapped (really ******* off many supporters), or Regions were formed (******* off everyone to a lesser extent). The Ospreys have shown how it can be successful. Their attendances have been a little on the low side recently, but don't underestimate the effect of the economy or the fact they were appalling to watch at the beggining of the season.

There isn't the potential for fans like say Leinster have in irelend, being the major sporting team in a City of 1million +, but if teams play well, support will follow. Munster and Leinster are again perfect examples of this, with their success on the European stage certainly drawing the crowds.

As I said, it's gotta be done. Just give it more time, they'll soon create their own history, and in 50 years time, no-one will remember the hard begginings.[/b]

With the Ospreys as well, the stadium has a lot to do with it, which is also party the Blues' problem. In the words of my uncle, who is a die hard rugby fan, the Liberty and Cardiff City stadiums are 'souless football stadiums' with zero atmosphere. My friend said it's awesome for football matches, but rugby and football fans have completely different mindsets, so it just doesn't work imo. Do most club stadiums in NZ have terraces out of interest? I love the terraces in the Arms Park, nothing like the atmosphere when they're full.
Success is obviously a massive part to it. I mean when the Blues got to the Semi final of the Heineken last season, they had 26,000 fans in the millenium stadium, which would more than fill the City Stadium, but now they barely get 10,000.

 

[William18]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Thingimubob @ Jan 13 2010, 04:50 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (dullonien @ Jan 13 2010, 12:32 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

It's probably the only way forward though! Speaking from my Welsh perspective on regional rugby here in Wales, it HAD to happen. Rugby here in Wales simply could not support 9 seperate clubs. So either a few clubs were scrapped (really ******* off many supporters), or Regions were formed (******* off everyone to a lesser extent). The Ospreys have shown how it can be successful. Their attendances have been a little on the low side recently, but don't underestimate the effect of the economy or the fact they were appalling to watch at the beggining of the season.

There isn't the potential for fans like say Leinster have in irelend, being the major sporting team in a City of 1million +, but if teams play well, support will follow. Munster and Leinster are again perfect examples of this, with their success on the European stage certainly drawing the crowds.

As I said, it's gotta be done. Just give it more time, they'll soon create their own history, and in 50 years time, no-one will remember the hard begginings.[/b]

With the Ospreys as well, the stadium has a lot to do with it, which is also party the Blues' problem. In the words of my uncle, who is a die hard rugby fan, the Liberty and Cardiff City stadiums are 'souless football stadiums' with zero atmosphere. My friend said it's awesome for football matches, but rugby and football fans have completely different mindsets, so it just doesn't work imo. Do most club stadiums in NZ have terraces out of interest? I love the terraces in the Arms Park, nothing like the atmosphere when they're full.
Success is obviously a massive part to it. I mean when the Blues got to the Semi final of the Heineken last season, they had 26,000 fans in the millenium stadium, which would more than fill the City Stadium, but now they barely get 10,000.
[/b][/quote]
Stadiums in New Zealand generally suffer from having to have one day cricket played there. In Wellington, we have an oval cricket ground which is a wonderful place for cricket but deemed too small for one day internationals. At the Westpac stadium you are so far away from the action because the ground is oval, it would be far better if we had more rectangular grounds. I don't think anywhere in New Zealand has terraces but a few of the smaller stadium have grass banks which are nice.

 

[Steve-o]

Alright I think I see the core problem here on the franchise vs club side of things.
Franchises are an advent of the pro-era and clubs are remaining stewards from the amatuer era.

Ultimately I think franchises are the way of the pro-era as it encourages regulations and controls on pro-sport which is essential for competitiveness in sport.
Sport NEEDS to be regulated or else we will have the farce we see in football (soccer).

Luckily for my team there is no distinction between the S14 & the Currie Cup besides a change in uniform

 

[QLD]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Steve-o @ Jan 16 2010, 12:23 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

Alright I think I see the core problem here on the franchise vs club side of things.
Franchises are an advent of the pro-era and clubs are remaining stewards from the amatuer era.

Ultimately I think franchises are the way of the pro-era as it encourages regulations and controls on pro-sport which is essential for competitiveness in sport.
Sport NEEDS to be regulated or else we will have the farce we see in football (soccer).

Luckily for my team there is no distinction between the S14 & the Currie Cup besides a change in uniform[/b]

Steve, what currie cup teams are the Sharks supposed to represent in S14? Like Stormers represent WP and Boland.