franchise system : a solution for Eastern Europe?

[Croket66]

I assume franchises system helped Italy, Celtic nations and SANZAR teams to improve and to have competitive teams despite they haven't money like France or England.

Just for fun, i made 6 teams from Romania, Russia and Georgia and i was surprised by the result
6 sides of 33 players, with a maximum of 6 foreign players who are playing in domestic leagues (Edinburgh and Glasgow have more than 10 foreign players)

These teams could be :

Bucharest - location : West of Romania - Premiership teams : Steaua Bucharest, Farul Constanta, Dinamo Bucharest, CSM Bucharest
Timisoara - location : East of Romania - Premiership teams : RCM Timisoara, CSM Baia Mare, U Cluj
Krasnoyarsk - location : East of Russia - Premiership teams : Enisey-STM, Krasny Yar, RC Novokuznetsk
Moscow - location : West of Russia - Premiership teams : VVA-Podmoskovye, Spartak GM, RC Fili, Slava-CSP, AgroUniversity Kazan, Bulava Taganrog, Kuban Krasnodar
Kutaisi - location : West of Georgia- Premiership teams : Aia Kutaisi, Batumi XV
Tbilissi - location : East of Georgia - Premiership teams : Army Tbilissi, Lelo Tbilissi, Lokomotiv Tbilissi, Jikebi, Armazi, Kochebi Tbilissi, Kharebi Bulls, Academy Tbilissi

Possible squads here : http://rugby-georgia.com/super6.html

with some qualifications places to Amlin Cup (top 2 or top 3 teams)

 

[racer0bv]

Interesting story here, i think that a league with these teams would benefit the rugby in the area. It could develop the game and increase the interest in our countries for good rugby games.

Meanwhile, Timisoara are going professional, they have some good signings, thinking of the Challenge cup ahead, with a budget of more than 2 mil euros, so i think they wouldn't be interested to switch to a franchise mode, but you'd never know.

 

[Deleted member 59246]

Genius! Love the 'possible rosters'. I think that would be a really interesting tournament to watch. Franchises are definitely the way to go for rugby in most countries coz, unfortunately, there just isn't a high enough concentration of supporters in most countries to support lots of clubs but a few franchises in each country is sustainable.

By the way, how do you know the real clubs of all the Russian and Georgian teams Croket? Is there somewhere you can get the squads for those club teams?

 

[Croket66]

Of course!
for Georgian Premiership squads, check my web site http://rugby-georgia.com and go to the bottom of the page
for Romanian Super Liga go on http://www.super-liga.ro/ -> Superliga CEC Bank -> echipe, and chose the club
for Russian Super League check this Wikipédia's link : http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modèle:Palette_Championnat_de_Russie_de_rugby_à_XV

You can also see 2013 transfers from these leagues here : http://www.fira-aer-rugby.com/forum2007/viewtopic.php?p=54438#p54438

 

[Teh Mite]

TBF, the franchises have ruined Celtic and Italian rugby - remember the Irish provinces have always pre-dated the franchise system while the old Welsh super-powers like Ponty aren't even names today.

 

[nickdnz]

TBF, the franchises have ruined Celtic and Italian rugby - remember the Irish provinces have always pre-dated the franchise system while the old Welsh super-powers like Ponty aren't even names today.

Which is why Ulster, Munster and Leinster seem to have a small support base and mediocre success?

With out huge interest and financial backing - it makes sense to have franchises, surely?

 

[Teh Mite]

Irish provinces always had large support bases long before Celtic Rugby PLC was formed. They're provinces with historical significance, not jonny come lately corporate select XVs whom nobody gives a toss about (I.e. the Scottish, Welsh and Italian sides).

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

Yeah, SA and Aus conferences in Super rugby also follow traditional provincial (or state in the case of Aus) lines and have that historical significance. Wouldn't work otherwise or at least not as faultlessly at the start and would have to be considered if the franchize system was to be introduced elsewhere.

 

[Deleted member 59246]

Irish provinces always had large support bases long before Celtic Rugby PLC was formed. They're provinces with historical significance, not jonny come lately corporate select XVs whom nobody gives a toss about (I.e. the Scottish, Welsh and Italian sides).

Well, it's true that the regions in Wales and Scotland aren't loved much but Treviso aren't really a franchise. They were a stand alone club before and had an existing fanbase. I would assume that in countries where rugby isn't as popular as it is in Britain & Ireland the franchises would gain support quickly as the rugby-heads in those areas wouldn't have existing allegiances to old teams. For instance, Zebre could become quite a successful team in the next decade or so as more and more Italians get into rugby but the Welsh regions have trouble gaining fans' interest because the lads that remember the good old days of Neath, Swansea, Llanelli, Newport, Cardiff, Pontypridd, etc., have trouble developing a love for their new thrown-together sides like the Scarlets and Ospreys.

I'd imagine this would be the case in Eastern Europe and the franchises would become quite popular.

 

[Deleted member 59246]

Of course!
for Georgian Premiership squads, check my web site http://rugby-georgia.com and go to the bottom of the page
for Romanian Super Liga go on http://www.super-liga.ro/ -> Superliga CEC Bank -> echipe, and chose the club
for Russian Super League check this Wikipédia's link : http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mod%C3%...ugby_%C3%A0_XV

You can also see 2013 transfers from these leagues here : http://www.fira-aer-rugby.com/forum2...p=54438#p54438

Brilliant! Thanks Croket. I've searched for this info before and haven't been able to find it.

 

[Feicarsinn]

TBF, the franchises have ruined Celtic and Italian rugby - remember the Irish provinces have always pre-dated the franchise system while the old Welsh super-powers like Ponty aren't even names today.

Trolly troll trolling call. The Welsh Premiership was unsustainable as a pro competition, leaving franchises as the only option. The fact that the transfer was terribly handled doesn't take away from the fact that Wales have won 3 grand slams and reached a World Cup since the franchise system came into play. Scottish rugby was always doomed, and I can't see how Italian rugby is worse off than it was two year ago.

 

[Draggs]

Irish provinces always had large support bases long before Celtic Rugby PLC was formed. They're provinces with historical significance, not jonny come lately corporate select XVs whom nobody gives a toss about (I.e. the Scottish, Welsh and Italian sides).

And that is why the Irish clubs have a great advantage. They have distinct boundaries (and separation).
How far is it between Newport and Llanelli?

 

[Teh Mite]

Trolly troll trolling call. The Welsh Premiership was unsustainable as a pro competition, leaving franchises as the only option. The fact that the transfer was terribly handled doesn't take away from the fact that Wales have won 3 grand slams and reached a World Cup since the franchise system came into play. Scottish rugby was always doomed, and I can't see how Italian rugby is worse off than it was two year ago.

What the fudge does a grabd slam have to do with the pathetic regions?

The old clubs may have been "unsustainable" as you put it, but they would at least draw crowds so there was some sort of rugby-related income. Something the regional teams don't do.

 

[Conal]

What the fudge does a grabd slam have to do with the pathetic regions?

The old clubs may have been "unsustainable" as you put it, but they would at least draw crowds so there was some sort of rugby-related income. Something the regional teams don't do.

wales didnt suit regions but the welsh prem needed huge reform to be viable
maybe wales just didn't suit a pro game? to be fair i reckon it would have done them better ( while damaging the rest of the celtic league) to have merged with the english prem

 

[j'nuh]

What the fudge does a grabd slam have to do with the pathetic regions?

The old clubs may have been "unsustainable" as you put it, but they would at least draw crowds so there was some sort of rugby-related income. Something the regional teams don't do.

If the region model is so flawed, why are Ireland having a pretty good go with it?

I think a key problem is the fact that it's ~£20 to go to a game (for a decent-sized family, that's a lot of money for just one night!) and it's just easier to stay in the comfort of your own home and watch it on TV for free, where just about every Welsh game is shown on either BBC or S4C. Even worse is that because the stadiums are sometimes so big and not being filled, the atmosphere feels dead. The atmosphere should be the main reason to pull people into the stadiums even when games are televised. Maybe the clubs should explore changing their deal with the BBC to only televise half their games and at the same time run a deal on season tickets to encourage more people to buy them. Once you've sold the season tickets, people will show up even to the televised games. More ticket sales means a better atmosphere means more ticket sales.

Trouble is, it's risky and the clubs won't try it unless the WRU steps in and promises to help as a safety net.

It shows that something's not right when Swansea and Cardiff football teams are getting more than double the attendances of the regions. The Welsh must care more about rugby than they do football, why isn't it showing in the attendances?

 

[Teh Mite]

If the region model is so flawed, why are Ireland having a pretty good go with it?

I

See post 7

 

[dullonien]

What the fudge does a grabd slam have to do with the pathetic regions?

The old clubs may have been "unsustainable" as you put it, but they would at least draw crowds so there was some sort of rugby-related income. Something the regional teams don't do.

I doubt they would still be drawing crowds with every single club shipping 60 points a match against the big European teams. If the regions are struggling on the pitch, then the old clubs would be getting destroyed, there simply isn't the player base available.

Regions were the 'only' way forward, just a pity that the clubs messed it all up (no it wasn't the WRU's fault, as their plan was much better than the mess we've got).

It shows that something's not right when Swansea and Cardiff football teams are getting more than double the attendances of the regions. The Welsh must care more about rugby than they do football, why isn't it showing in the attendances?

Not true really. Football is easily the biggest sport in Wales. If the Welsh football team were more successful, it't have a big following. Up until now, welsh football fans followed their favourite premiership teams (Man U, Chelsea, Liverpool etc.), but now that Swansea (and soon to be Cardiff) are in the Premiership, many of those fans are switching loyalties, or following the Welsh clubs as well as their previous English club.

There are a lot of casual rugby fans in Wales that love to get involved with the big international 'day out' in Cardiff, that don't watch regional rugby at all. My sister is a prime example, moaned all the time about having the tv taken over by rugby every weekend so that my dad, brother and I could watch the clubs/regions play, but loves going to the pubs/to the millennium to watch Wales play in the 6 nations etc.

Anyway. The thread should be steered back on topic. No point de-railing it to debate the failings of Welsh regional rugby again.

 

[McTallshort]

"If the region model is so flawed, why are Ireland having a pretty good go with it?"

Dont the Irish regions have a larger budget and tax incentives for Irish player who stay in Ireland?

 

[RedWhiteGreen]

I don't think that either the franchise or clubs with promotion/relegation model is inherently superior. However, an Eastern European - or potentially, a "Rest of Europe" league would make a lot of sense in terms of giving them good regular rugby, and hopefully making a competition that would be able to feed in to the Amlin. Two each from Georgia, Russia, Romania (plus expansion room), one each from Ukraine and somewhere else?

 

[Canadian_Rugger]

The biggest problem with the Celtic League is that it suffers from lack of brand recognition. I think franchising works perfectly fine, if it is done properly. If the Unions would stop treating the Celtic League like some place where players goto stretch their legs for the internationals and treat it like an actual serious competition things would be a lot better. Problem is that half the time when you watch the Celtic League its the reserves playing and the league is not taken seriously by some.

As well, I believe that there is an over-saturation of professional rugby in the UK, especially when their really isn't that large of a demand. £20 Euro's you say for a ticket, that is really nothing in terms of cost for a professional sports ticket. If I wanted to go watch the Toronto Maple Leafs play a hockey game I am looking at $200+ for one ticket and thats assuming I can even get a ticket which is damn near next to impossible in Canada.

I would re-direct my focus to building the Celtic League brand, scrap the LV Cup and the British & Irish Cup and in turn create some sort of A-League and re-direct the focus away from the national team towards the Regions because you can't build a strong house on top of a weak foundation.