Forward Play

[leicester]

One of my big hopes for R2005 is that we will finally have a game where forwards can make a real impact. I really hope that the bigger guys are more difficult to bring down in a tackle and that they can put in more effective hits. Tackle breaking seems to be a problem in most games (with the exception of SLRL (SJRL) where it is sometimes spot on). I want to see those forwards driving upfield or causing damage. I don't just want slower blokes dawdling around the pitch. I want pick and go and proper (smoother) offloads. Like some other folks on these boards, I desperately hope that we can have some control over rucks and mauls. I feel like most previous games are just botton bashes for rucks or the result is pretty much pre-programmed. It should have more to do with who gets there first and would benefit from some finesse (yes - thats right - finesse, forwards and rucks in the same post!).

 

[robbinho]

couldn't agree more, leicester. (and "agree" and leicester" aren't words that form easily for me) It's always seemed in games that the only differences between forwards and backs was that the forwards were really slow (like sherman tanks, if you will) You do need them to be able to bust tackles, and smash wingers to pieces when they get hold of them. Offloads are a must too, we've not seen their like since JLR.

 

[cavan]

I want offloads to have decent animations too, like one handed passes etc. Not just have a player go into contact and the ball to magically fly out to a supporting player.

 

[robbinho]

agreed, you don't want a propr to be able to throw the same sort of pass out of contact as a scrum half does from a ruck/maul.

 

[leicester]

Provided that the girls in the backs are swift enough to make some good runs (and one or two tough enough to burst a few midfield tackles), adding in forward play is probably the one thing that would make most difference to the tactics of the game and would really allow you to adopt very different playing styles (and allow computer controlled teams to behave differently - like R2004 pretended they could). A kicking game without forwards is pointless. A running game on its own becomes candyfloss. You need both elements in a game to maintain interest and playability.

I dream of a rugby game where the forwards are formidable. Those who like playing with the backs would also get more out of running rings round the admittedly usually slower forwards if they knew there was a real chance that their prized star winger might get mashed and be stretched off if he misjudges his fancy footwork. It all adds to the challenge.

My one favourite moment from 2004 VI Nations was Danny Grewcock crossing the line with the Scots lock dragging behind him like a ragdoll. I want to have moments like that in PS2 rugby gaming!

 

[robbinho]

Here here

 

[leicester]

…oh, and with a game that can make forwards more of a force to be reckoned with, you can use the same template to create those forwards that think they are backs (e.g. Scott “Ox-killer†Gibbs â€" the man who used to be the fastest prop [er â€" sorry â€" centre] in the game. In his heyday [’97 Lions] â€" wasn’t it simply marvellous when Os du Randt thought he could tackle Gibbs?

Still split my sides thinking about that one!). Admittedly, I’ve tried to erase Wales ’99 at Wembley v England from my mind

but you get the point.

 

[cavan]

certainly i agree with your points Leicester, but for a forwards game you'd need a quite dynamic lineout, maul and scrum feature. No game yest has done a lineout where players actually move their feet and dummy jumpers are put up. Also mauls need to be more dynamic, the ability to move left or right, for instance has never been properly utilized. Also when a team has the push on big time against a weaker scrummaging team, it should produce really good ball, so that the no8 has something to work with when he breaks of the scrum, perhaps an instant pick and drive after the hook (ala, Scotland with Simon Taylor)

 

[leicester]

Yes yes yes.

I agree, Cavan. particularly about the mauls. Line outs would be great if they could get them working but I'll not hold my breath. Now mauls, that should be easy enough but it damn well hasn't yet. Lets pray that EA/HB get it right (or at least significantly better) this time around. Never seen a PS2 rugby maul that works even remotely realistically.

I remember reading with pleasure Jason Robinson's autobiog, where he comments on the game he played Wigan v Bath - union rules (second half I think). Big Bath rolling maul and a Wigan prop says "How do you stop this?"

Robinson (or someone else) replied "you don't mate!"

Now thats more like it...

 

[cavan]

i'd love to unleash an 8 man maul against one of my friends on a console rugby game. To have it must quiclky rather than at snails pace like all the other games so far. It would have to be dynamic, perhaps using a rock paper scissors mode:

Once the maul is set, the team going forward can move left, right or straight ahead

At the same time as a maul switches direction, the defence has the opportunity to add men to the left right or centre.

If the defense adds men to the wrong side, then the maul moves forward steadily, but once they add men to the correct side, then the maul is slowed or even stopped.

I dunno if this would work, does anyone have any other ideas about dynamic mauling in rugby video games?

 

[leicester]

Sounds the most practical suggestion I've heard so far. Could maybe work quite well.

 

[robbinho]

Not long ago I would have made a crack about a Leicester fan wanting a game full of rolling mauls, but nowadays it's the only way Bath score any tries!

 

[knowsleyroader]

I would be happy just to see the forwards breaking more tackles than the backs, its an easy way to balance the game. I also want to be able to control who I bring onto the ball i.e forward or back. I mean REAL control of which player I want to get the ball. I want to be able to bring a back infield and try to use him to drive the ball forward into the opposition pack JUST to see that it doesnt work and he gets smashed and possibly loses the ball or picks up a knock.

I want to run forwards out wide JUST to see that it doesnt work and they get cut down in an instant.

I also more than anything want to see my forwards TIRING during a game, I mean REALLY tiring as in you can definately tell and need to get them subbed.

Also how good would it be ( going back the the backs taking the ball up and getting smashed ) to see players carring a knock and giving it time to see if they can run it off or if they need to be subbed.

 

[captainamerica]

Originally posted by knowsleyroader@Jan 15 2005, 06:04 AM
I would be happy just to see the forwards breaking more tackles than the backs, its an easy way to balance the game. I also want to be able to control who I bring onto the ball i.e forward or back. I mean REAL control of which player I want to get the ball. I want to be able to bring a back infield and try to use him to drive the ball forward into the opposition pack JUST to see that it doesnt work and he gets smashed and possibly loses the ball or picks up a knock.

I want to run forwards out wide JUST to see that it doesnt work and they get cut down in an instant.

I also more than anything want to see my forwards TIRING during a game, I mean REALLY tiring as in you can definately tell and need to get them subbed.

Also how good would it be ( going back the the backs taking the ball up and getting smashed ) to see players carring a knock and giving it time to see if they can run it off or if they need to be subbed.

I'm always in favor of more control. Absolutely agree with the sentiments expressed above.

Wonder if this will be part of that on-the-fly capability they talk about, where, like Madden and its use of audibles, a button sequence either brings more forwards knocking on your door, or spreads the loosies out into the backline, etc, etc, etc.

 

[leicester]

Difficult to assess how well R2005 measures up to many of these points until you get a chance to play for yourself but...

...what I have seen so far encourages me that forwards will have a place in the game. If players can break tackles (as we have seen in the vids), it shouldn't be difficult to programme bigger players (i.e. forwards to shrug off tackles more often). Although they would get swamped and brought down before getting too far upfield, this should be sufficient to make a break and offload to a faster supporting player (my mouth is watering at the prospect of running the big guys straight into the defensive line and admiring the resultant carnage).

...I liked the look of the maul. OK, so it looks pretty simplistic in many respects but I'm willing to accept an improvement that allows you to maul (as opposed to the travesties in R2004 and WCR). Locks vid shows a maul mauling! This makes me happy.

...Rucks, well I feel the jury is still out. OK so you can add players. Does it feel like you have extra control or is the result a simply preprogrammed probability regardless of where you are on the pitch in relation to the rest of your players. Frequently in both R2004 and WCR I simply couldn't believe that the players already at the ruck could not secure ball whilst the opposition leisurely and lazily added players one at a time and were duly awarded an undeserved and unlikely turnover. For all their unattractive 1 dimensional up/down dynamic, I actually found the R2001 rucks worked better than both R2004 and WCR. Will this be an improvement? I hope so - desperately. For me, the ruck is at the heart of rugby union and the absence of the ruck in league is league's biggest shortfall.

I would appreciate any comments, particulary from Locksley as he has played, although I accept that as a League buff, getting too stuck into forward play might stick in your throat a bit... ah well... I can but dream.

 

[TheBokke]

Hey Leicester! Playing openside flank for my club I love that part of the game as much as the next guy. Take a close look at the video clip that locks posted called TWO QUICK RUCKS AND A TRY on the second phase just before the try is scored the scrum half has two options one was to pass to the fly-half and spread it wide or pass it to forward making a rampaging run, it looks like Johnson or one of England locks charging up at pace and he passes it to him wisely because they are so close to the try line(check out the realism of run and momentum) and he goes over for a well worked try. I have not seen that kind of play since JLR(forward making an effect on the game) it all looks so promising.

 

[leicester]

Thanks.

I checked out that vid again and yes, it does look promising.

 

[lionmaul]

Originally posted by leicester@Feb 1 2005, 04:36 AM
Difficult to assess how well R2005 measures up to many of these points until you get a chance to play for yourself but...

...what I have seen so far encourages me that forwards will have a place in the game. If players can break tackles (as we have seen in the vids), it shouldn't be difficult to programme bigger players (i.e. forwards to shrug off tackles more often). Although they would get swamped and brought down before getting too far upfield, this should be sufficient to make a break and offload to a faster supporting player (my mouth is watering at the prospect of running the big guys straight into the defensive line and admiring the resultant carnage).

...I liked the look of the maul. OK, so it looks pretty simplistic in many respects but I'm willing to accept an improvement that allows you to maul (as opposed to the travesties in R2004 and WCR). Locks vid shows a maul mauling! This makes me happy.

...Rucks, well I feel the jury is still out. OK so you can add players. Does it feel like you have extra control or is the result a simply preprogrammed probability regardless of where you are on the pitch in relation to the rest of your players. Frequently in both R2004 and WCR I simply couldn't believe that the players already at the ruck could not secure ball whilst the opposition leisurely and lazily added players one at a time and were duly awarded an undeserved and unlikely turnover. For all their unattractive 1 dimensional up/down dynamic, I actually found the R2001 rucks worked better than both R2004 and WCR. Will this be an improvement? I hope so - desperately. For me, the ruck is at the heart of rugby union and the absence of the ruck in league is league's biggest shortfall.

I would appreciate any comments, particulary from Locksley as he has played, although I accept that as a League buff, getting too stuck into forward play might stick in your throat a bit... ah well... I can but dream.

I agree about the rugby 2001 system being a good system for rucks, I have never seen anyone complain about the mechanics of that system for rucks, sure the interface needed speeding up and the animation needed lots of work but the actuall mechanics worked very well for it. Here is a Cheer for adding forward play!!!!!!!
Cheers and Salud

 

[EVERTON]

How about something using the analog like the faster you rotate it the more power it gives ??

S

 

[ak47]

Originally posted by EVERTON@Feb 2 2005, 09:13 AM
How about something using the analog like the faster you rotate it the more power it gives ??

S

using the right analogue with 2001 system would work a treat

right analogue down - to dig and raise power bar to push
right analogue up - to push once power bar full
right ananlogue left - hand on ball - penalty or a steal if ref not alert
right analogue right - ruck crashes - penalty or scrum if ref not awares

x to add players
o to remove them

same for mauls however left and right on the analgoue twists the maul in that repsective direction

seriously guys
the games that utilise every button are the games that excel
this business about x adding a man, and 1st in 1st served wins the ruck, doesnt justify how a real rugby ruck can be won

sure we now have options after the rucks won, but i'd rather have more options on how i won that ruck