England v Japan - 24/11/2024 (16.10)

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

I was of the believe not all teams run a blitz which was part of the issue with it not working.

Not all do but when the majority of the players seem to get it wrong you have to question the choice and use of the system.

Somethings not right with defence that's for sure.

 

[The Seeker]

England in a romp.

 

[Scotty]

Not all do but when the majority of the players seem to get it wrong you have to question the choice and use of the system.

Somethings not right with defence that's for sure.

What type of defence to Oyonnax have? That's Joe El Abd' other club right?

If he hasn't coached a blitz defence before then it will longer for the systems to be put in place properly and fine tuned. With only 3 games it would have been a disaster to change it round completely.

As to what we should do going forward? I don't know it depends on Joe El-abds strengths as a defence coach.

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

What type of defence to Oyonnax have? That's Joe El Abd' other club right?

If he hasn't coached a blitz defence before then it will longer for the systems to be put in place properly and fine tuned. With only 3 games it would have been a disaster to change it round completely.

As to what we should do going forward? I don't know it depends on Joe El-abds strengths as a defence coach.

What ever he's doing it's not working as his club is 14th out of 16th in the pro D.

Sounds like a **** poor coach to me.

 

[BPM]

I think that's a bit unfair. The defence has looked bad, but he's 3 games in and he's still working with Oyonnax so he hasn't had much preparation. I'd have been more surprised (pleasantly) if our defence looked good straight off the bat given the quality of opposition we've played.

We need to give him a bit of a chance.

Forshaw is (was?) highly rated as a defence coach but Wales' defence isn't looking too good right now. Perhaps test rugby is not as easy as you seem to think it is.

 

[Reiser99]

I get giving time for new coaches. My issue is we shouldn't really be in this situation in the first place. Maybe it was all just bad luck, but the way everything went down suggests something is wrong within the coaching staff. If England seriously want to be in the top 4, let alone win anything you can't be constantly changing coaches and having your defence coach as part time.

Whether it's Borthwick or the RFU, someone has to take responsibility because if we have another coaching turnover we can't keep saying give them time, it's a new coach as we won't have time.
The other issue is that we haven't seen a huge improvement. Look at Australia under Schmidt. They aren't the finished article, but they already look a hell of a lot better. Yes they were at a lower starting point, but if England's coaches can't show a noticeable improvement by now, when will they?

 

[Lé Ddanno]

It does feel like a loss might effect some positive change. We've won what, 4 this year so far? Against the worst Wales side since the mid 90s, Italy (by 3 points!) a rather rusty looking Ireland and we only nicked it at the death, and Japan. Not a single performance has looked convincing, let alone dominant. I am quite ready to move on from Shame Bungled and his reign of... stank

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

I get giving time for new coaches. My issue is we shouldn't really be in this situation in the first place. Maybe it was all just bad luck, but the way everything went down suggests something is wrong within the coaching staff. If England seriously want to be in the top 4, let alone win anything you can't be constantly changing coaches and having your defence coach as part time.

Whether it's Borthwick or the RFU, someone has to take responsibility because if we have another coaching turnover we can't keep saying give them time, it's a new coach as we won't have time.
The other issue is that we haven't seen a huge improvement. Look at Australia under Schmidt. They aren't the finished article, but they already look a hell of a lot better. Yes they were at a lower starting point, but if England's coaches can't show a noticeable improvement by now, when will they?

Borthwick didn't have the CV for the job so it's unsurprising he's struggling. He takes some of the flak, but 95% of it gets directed at the RFU for offering him the job in the first place and for letting things nosedive so badly under Jones.

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

I blame Sam Burgess.

 

[BPM]

I get giving time for new coaches. My issue is we shouldn't really be in this situation in the first place. Maybe it was all just bad luck, but the way everything went down suggests something is wrong within the coaching staff. If England seriously want to be in the top 4, let alone win anything you can't be constantly changing coaches and having your defence coach as part time.

Whether it's Borthwick or the RFU, someone has to take responsibility because if we have another coaching turnover we can't keep saying give them time, it's a new coach as we won't have time.
The other issue is that we haven't seen a huge improvement. Look at Australia under Schmidt. They aren't the finished article, but they already look a hell of a lot better. Yes they were at a lower starting point, but if England's coaches can't show a noticeable improvement by now, when will they?

So I agree with pretty much all of this, but El Abd has had 3 games. I don't think that's anywhere near enough time to make a fair judgement. Whether he should have been offered the job in the first place is definitely up for debate, but he was and so we need to give him - and I'm talking specifically about El Abd only here - a little bit of grace.

Schmidt is a different beast altogether. Even if we'd wanted him, he only wanted to be I close to home in NZ so it's a moot point.

 

[BPM]

Also, are Australia definitively 'back'? The rugby media has been very quick to proclaim they are, but they've beaten us and Wales. Apparently were dreadful and Wales genuinely are, so I think Scotland is the real acid test as far as the Triple Crown is concerned.

If we had beaten Australia, it would have been 'ah well we should be winning that', but when we lose they're 'back'. I think the narrative is a little off.

There's no doubt Schmidt has made a big difference, but I think they might be being hyped too soon.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

I blame Sam Burgess.

And Umbro.

And Allianz.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

Also, are Australia definitively 'back'? The rugby media has been very quick to proclaim they are, but they've beaten us and Wales. Apparently were dreadful and Wales genuinely are, so I think Scotland is the real acid test as far as the Triple Crown is concerned.

If we had beaten Australia, it would have been 'ah well we should be winning that', but when we lose they're 'back'. I think the narrative is a little off.

There's no doubt Schmidt has made a big difference, but I think they might be being hyped too soon.

They're on the way.

Took some beatings in the Championship but beat Arg once and nearly chased down a big NZ lead. The Arg hammering just has to go down as one of those things into which you can't read too much.

Old Beergutians 3rd XV could beat Wal at the moment and while we're not brilliant we're generally pretty competitive so taking our scalp at HQ is a good sign. As you say, Sco might be a better indicator.

 

[Rugbyfan564]

Borthwick was going to be hired post World Cup had Jones not been sacked. The RFU had decided early on they wanted an English coach and that he was the best available English option.

 

[Saintjay]

So I agree with pretty much all of this, but El Abd has had 3 games. I don't think that's anywhere near enough time to make a fair judgement. Whether he should have been offered the job in the first place is definitely up for debate, but he was and so we need to give him - and I'm talking specifically about El Abd only here - a little bit of grace.

Schmidt is a different beast altogether. Even if we'd wanted him, he only wanted to be I close to home in NZ so it's a moot point.

I do struggle to see under what criteria he was deemed the best person for the job and why?. I think the RFU had a short list of three coaches one being Gustard and another who's with an SA team.

I've no doubt Borthwick must have had an imput on the short list and who got selected.

 

[Geordie]

I blame Sam Burgess.

Bring back Phil Vickery

 

[Geordie]

Well...it is what it is. Hes in.

We narrowly lost 3 games which truth be told (regardless of the actual performance) we should have won. Theres been a lot of disruption (which needs clarifying why) and some players have come back after being injured and straight in with no club games, which doesnt sit well with me. Theres also been some selection issues in my opinion, especially on the bench, where some impact on 50 mins probably would have changed the result.

Ill judge them on the 6n, and i think the RFU probably will also. But at the moment SB has a lot of questions to answer that im starting to wonder if he can answer...

 

[Reiser99]

Well...it is what it is. Hes in.

We narrowly lost 3 games which truth be told (regardless of the actual performance) we should have won. Theres been a lot of disruption (which needs clarifying why) and some players have come back after being injured and straight in with no club games, which doesnt sit well with me. Theres also been some selection issues in my opinion, especially on the bench, where some impact on 50 mins probably would have changed the result.

Ill judge them on the 6n, and i think the RFU probably will also. But at the moment SB has a lot of questions to answer that im starting to wonder if he can answer...

My issue with narrowly lost is that against NZ and SA they really should have scored more. It was more that they didn't play their best and kept us it, than we played well and narrowly lost. Australia was different, but also we should have won that game, especially in terms of rankings, so counting that as a 'narrow loss' isn't a positive either. If they were narrow losses with a good performance then I'd be disappointed, but less critical. The issue is the performance isn't there and we're losing winnable games because of it.

 

[Crash Hamster]

Looking at the weather forecast, this could be an 'up the jumper' game. Rain all weekend and high winds, which might die back during the game.

Beat Japan with forward grunt? No-one is impressed.
Lose a close game (and the weather will make it lower-scoring) due to one piece of brilliance? Pitchforks at the ready.

Can't even close the roof...

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

My issue with narrowly lost is that against NZ and SA they really should have scored more. It was more that they didn't play their best and kept us it, than we played well and narrowly lost. Australia was different, but also we should have won that game, especially in terms of rankings, so counting that as a 'narrow loss' isn't a positive either. If they were narrow losses with a good performance then I'd be disappointed, but less critical. The issue is the performance isn't there and we're losing winnable games because of it.

Would you have taken wins regardless of performance? I probably would have and taken the view it was something to build on (and don't under estimate the confidence of winning or vice versa). Very fine margins, but they are at this level.

Another concerning thing though was that these were home fixtures which are supposed to give a significant advantage.

But in the last few months we've beaten Ire who beat Fra who beat the ABs who beat Arg who beat the Boks who beat Aus who beat us. We *just* need to get on the right end of some of these results.

So what are SB's priorities for the 6N?

No1 has to be to find the winning habit. We're leaking points and losing games, but not really being humped on the scoreboard. Concede one try fewer per game and things could look very different…..it will be disappointing if the D doesn't look a shedload better.