England v Fiji - 8/11/2025

[BPM]

Think that actually makes the decision to play him there worse, tbh

Agreed. There's an argument to say that it's a worthwhile experiment, but it doesn't feel like one that should be taking place in test matches when we have a very good, in form 13 who should be starting.

Taking a slightly longer term view, Will Joseph is looking very good and Marchant may well be back next season so we could have several good, natural 13s available. Why move Freeman away from a position he's excelling in purely cos he's expressed an interest in it?

 

[Which Tyler]

It's the case that Wingers are taught to back themselves, and backing himself to make a break and then offloading is likely what he was going for rather greed(not that you said it was)

Where as a 13 will have that awareness to look for the man outside and make the decision. Freeman can/will be a great 13 but at club level before country please. Bring back OL

This, exactly this.
No-one is saying that Freeman doesn't have potential at OC. We're saying he needs to realise that potential BEFORE starts tests in the 13 shirt - especially if there a very good, international quality OC who's being dropped in order for TF to learn on the job.

This is no different to experimenting with Marcus at FB, or Farrell at IC, or TCurry at #8 on the international pitch, rather than t club level. (well, it IS a little different, in that there were no very good international quality players being dropped to make room for Owen or Tom - especially not ones who'd managed to prove that whilst being played out of position themselves,, and finally had a shot at their actual, specialist position)

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

Steve: ‘Freeman you are at 13 or on the bench this weekend’

Freemen: ‘I want to play 13’

Press release ‘Freeman wants to play 13’

A week ago we were told it was SBs long term plan for the last two years to get Freeman there so of course his answer is that he wants to if he wants to play for England.

 

[Rugbyfan564]

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Good, we need to be looking at our 8 options

They seem to be implying
6. Pollock,
7. Earl
8. CCS

which is quite the departure from our previous backrows!

 

[Geordie]

Good, we need to be looking at our 8 options

They seem to be implying
6. Pollock,
7. Earl
8. CCS

which is quite the departure from our previous backrows!

I think the absolutely has to look at CCS at 8 for this game. Specifically with Willis out the picture now we really need to identify a heavy duty 8 to contrast the more lightfooted Earl / Pollock going there.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

I like them all individually, but that would be:

A 6 who’s a 7 who plays a fair bit at 8

A 7 who’s a 7 but has been playing more at 8 and a bit at 12

And an 8 who’s probably an 8 but has only ever started at 6 for England and was last seen as lock cover / potential.

So if SB’s not following my advice and using this as a dress rehearsal, I think Underhill, Curry and Earl are pencilled in to start v the ABs. Assuming that Chessum will be kept in the row through lack of alternatives.

 

[Blueblackandwhite]

We seriously lacked a proper playmaker in the centre last weekend. There were chances on the outside totally butchered by Freeman who lacked either the confidence, or the skill, to shift the ball outside him. Poor IFW got a raw deal all game. OL would be better suited at 13 but I'd have him on at 12 over not having him on at all.

I'm willing to give Freeman another go against Fiji at least, If Lawrence and Freeman can look good together then that's potentially an enormous problem solved.

 

[Saintjay]

We seriously lacked a proper playmaker in the centre last weekend. There were chances on the outside totally butchered by Freeman who lacked either the confidence, or the skill, to shift the ball outside him. Poor IFW got a raw deal all game. OL would be better suited at 13 but I'd have him on at 12 over not having him on at all.

Henry Slade and Faz it is then.

 

[spursincornwall]

Fiji by 5 points

 

[Geordie]

I like them all individually, but that would be:

A 6 who's a 7 who plays a fair bit at 8

A 7 who's a 7 but has been playing more at 8 and a bit at 12

And an 8 who's probably an 8 but has only ever started at 6 for England and was last seen as lock cover / potential.

So if SB's not following my advice and using this as a dress rehearsal, I think Underhill, Curry and Earl are pencilled in to start v the ABs. Assuming that Chessum will be kept in the row through lack of alternatives.

Quality lock depth is a real concern for me.
Batley and Lockett start for the A side but they don't inspire me that they're going to smash in at the top level. I'd rather have seen Bamber and Sodeke start that game.

 

[Scotty]

Fiji by 5 points

whats your reasoning? As I think we will be pretty decent favourites personally, not that Fiji should be underestimated.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

Quality lock depth is a real concern for me.
Batley and Lockett start for the A side but they don't inspire me that they're going to smash in at the top level. I'd rather have seen Bamber and Sodeke start that game.

Lockett is just a small lock

 

[Rugbyfan564]

The times says Fin Smith will replace George Ford while Ollie Lawerence will return with Tommy Freeman shifted to replace Tom Roebuck. Freddie Steward will likely be be replaced by Marcus Smith with Chandler Cunningham-South replacing Ben Earl who will be shifted.

 

[BPM]

Overall, I like the sound of that TBH … I’d prefer not to play Marcus at 15 but Fiji’s style of play probably suits a runner/distributor in the back field so I don’t hate it.

Quality lock depth is a real concern for me.
Batley and Lockett start for the A side but they don't inspire me that they're going to smash in at the top level. I'd rather have seen Bamber and Sodeke start that game.

I think that’s harsh on Batley. He’s probably been the best lock in the league over the past couple of seasons and I think he’d be capped by now if he hadn’t repeatedly picked up injuries at exactly the wrong time. He’s definitely a late bloomer but given his background that’s understandable and I think he would do well if he did get picked for the seniors.

Lockett is decent enough but on form Bamber deserved to play and has the physical potential to be a beast. Clark looks good but is another who seems to be injury prone.

The problem is that we have a bunch of locks who looked promising early on but haven’t really hit the level expected of them - Isiekwe is the poster boy for this. Anyone remember Ehize Ehizode ‘better than Itoje’?

Finally - a word for Charlie Ewels … I know his name sparks debate (to put it mildly). However, I think he’s far better than he’s given credit for and certainly a good, experienced 5th choice.

 

[Which Tyler]

A] Anyone remember Ehize Ehizode 'better than Itoje'?

B] Finally - a word for Charlie Ewels … I know his name sparks debate (to put it mildly). However, I think he's far better than he's given credit for and certainly a good, experienced 5th choice.

A] Nope - don't recall the name at all, who is he, and when was he playing age-grade? I've been trying to watch U20 for about 7-8 years now, and U18 for 3-4.
ETA: A google tells me he never played international age-grade, and the highest level he ever played was PRC - are you sure he was hailed as "better than Itoje"?

B] Ewels didn't really fulfill his promise until he spent those few months in South Africa (2023) - until then, I think he and his club were expecting things to just fall into his lap with "just" a good work ethic. South Africa seemed to teach him an effective work ethic. At that point, he became comprehensively better than Jonny Hill, but this was after he'd stuggled to adapt to the strictest era of head contact laws, seeing him go from 0 cards to 6 yellows and 2 reds in a 2 year period. Those 2 reds in successive tests really put paid to him as anything other than emergency backup.

 

[Geordie]

Overall, I like the sound of that TBH … I'd prefer not to play Marcus at 15 but Fiji's style of play probably suits a runner/distributor in the back field so I don't hate it.



I think that's harsh on Batley. He's probably been the best lock in the league over the past couple of seasons and I think he'd be capped by now if he hadn't repeatedly picked up injuries at exactly the wrong time. He's definitely a late bloomer but given his background that's understandable and I think he would do well if he did get picked for the seniors.

Lockett is decent enough but on form Bamber deserved to play and has the physical potential to be a beast. Clark looks good but is another who seems to be injury prone.

The problem is that we have a bunch of locks who looked promising early on but haven't really hit the level expected of them - Isiekwe is the poster boy for this. Anyone remember Ehize Ehizode 'better than Itoje'?

Finally - a word for Charlie Ewels … I know his name sparks debate (to put it mildly). However, I think he's far better than he's given credit for and certainly a good, experienced 5th choice.

Im not disputing hes been going well in the prem, im just not sure how high his playing ceiling is, at the next level. I guess this is where the A team comes in, for development etc, but hes 29 now?

I just cant see how playing him over Bamber is development (IMO). Bamber is 24, a 6'9 physical unit thats really progressing well now. Hes going to learn so much playing against a NZ select team. Lockett is still young though so im watching how he goes closely.

 

[BPM]

A] Nope - don't recall the name at all, who is he, and when was he playing age-grade? I've been trying to watch U20 for about 7-8 years now, and U18 for 3-4.
ETA: A google tells me he never played international age-grade, and the highest level he ever played was PRC - are you sure he was hailed as "better than Itoje"?

B] Ewels didn't really fulfill his promise until he spent those few months in South Africa (2023) - until then, I think he and his club were expecting things to just fall into his lap with "just" a good work ethic. South Africa seemed to teach him an effective work ethic. At that point, he became comprehensively better than Jonny Hill, but this was after he'd stuggled to adapt to the strictest era of head contact laws, seeing him go from 0 cards to 6 yellows and 2 reds in a 2 year period. Those 2 reds in successive tests really put paid to him as anything other than emergency backup.

Yes. 100%. When he was at Wasps, he was lauded as the next big thing and was described as ‘better than Itoje at this age …’ or something like that. It was supposed to be a bit of a coup when Bristol picked him up.

Agreed on Ewels. However, I don’t think Borthwick sees him as ‘emergency back up’. He was very good in Argentina and really showed the value of his experience. He’s rightly behind Itoje, Chessum, Martin and Coles, but when we’re discussing depth, I think he’s more than decent for 5th choice.

 

[Which Tyler]

Yes. 100%. When he was at Wasps, he was lauded as the next big thing and was described as 'better than Itoje at this age …' or something like that. It was supposed to be a bit of a coup when Bristol picked him up.

Agreed on Ewels. However, I don't think Borthwick sees him as 'emergency back up'. He was very good in Argentina and really showed the value of his experience. He's rightly behind Itoje, Chessum, Martin and Coles, but when we're discussing depth, I think he's more than decent for 5th choice.

I will have to take your word for it.
It seems extraordinary that someone who doesn't even play either U18 or U20 internationally to be considered better than someone who captained their age-grade teams and was seen as a future England captain (whilst already being capped and being first choice starter for Saracens).
ETA: Just usinghis name in the search function of Sportsnetwork board - Bristol board at the time would be surprised by that level of acclaim.
Doing the same for the Wasps board shows posters being confused by the press' acclaim for him. There's enough for his departure to have a thread, but not for anyone to seem upset.
Same search in here has you saying that you've seen him referred to as "Itoje MkII" - but no-one else - so I very much accept that you've seen him hyped that way. I very much don't accept that it was an accepted wisdom that everyone else has just forgotten about.


I'd regard 5th choice lock to be emergency backup TBH - unlikely to make a RWC squad, needs 3 injuries to get a start (and may not even then, given the preponderance of 5/6s)

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

B] Ewels didn't really fulfill his promise until he spent those few months in South Africa (2023) - until then, I think he and his club were expecting things to just fall into his lap with "just" a good work ethic. South Africa seemed to teach him an effective work ethic. At that point, he became comprehensively better than Jonny Hill, but this was after he'd stuggled to adapt to the strictest era of head contact laws, seeing him go from 0 cards to 6 yellows and 2 reds in a 2 year period. Those 2 reds in successive tests really put paid to him as anything other than emergency backup.

Huge fan of players getting out of the narrow confines of the Prem and experiencing rugby elsewhere. Even if it doesn’t work out they’ll still learn so much and absorb new ideas.

Heyes is coming on really well now. But do you think he’d be even better with18 months in South African Scrum Central under his belt?

Whatever Arundell’s motivations he’s going to be better for his French experience even if his main takeaway was that natural talent isn’t enough.

Will be interesting to see how Marchant comes back.

Same applies to coaches which was why the F Jones situation was so irritating.