Concern for the SA conference for 2016

[TRF_stormer2010]

So I was just having a bit of a panic attack just looking at the amount of guys leaving our shores again at the end of the year. And add to that the Kings are joining again so that's another team to feed.

Just below illustrates that we have 4 matchday XV's worth solid players playing outside of SA. And I'm not so much interested in the possible Bokke than I am in proven Super rugby solidity. We need these 'brick-and-mortar' players to guide the youngsters early on and provide the base for 'star' players to play off of. This list is also just off the top of my head and many of those feature in Premiership/Top14/etc XV's of the week.

1 Steven Kitshoff / Heinke van der Merwe / JC Janse van Rensburg / Schalk Ferreira
2 Craig Burden / Bismarck du Plessis / Schalk Brits / Bandise Maku / Chiliboy Ralepele
3 Wiehann Herbst / Frans Malherbe / Brian Mujati / WP Nel
4 Francois van der Merwe / Paul Wilemse / Franco van der Merwe / Bakkies Botha
5 Andries Bekker / Juandre Kruger / Jandre Marais / Rynhardt Elstadt
6 Francois Louw / Heinrich Brussow / Lappies Labuschagne / Dewald Potgieter
7 Bernard le Roux / Jacques du Plessis / Josh Strauss / Ashley Johnson
8 Duane Vermeulen / CJ Stander / Pierre Spies / Antonie Claassen
9 Fourie du Preez / Rory Kockott / Charl McCleod / Nic Groom / Francis Hougaard*
10 Monre Steyn / Johan Goosen / Ruan Pienaar / Peter Grant
11/14 Bryan Habana / G van den Heever / Gio Aplon / Wandile Mjekevu
12/13 Pat Howard / Jaque Fourie / Rob Ebersohn / Wynand Olivier
15 Louis Ludik / Riaan Viljoen / Willie le Roux* / Zane Kirchner

Luckily Jano Vermaak and Jacques Potgieter are on their way back to SA. I hope that trend continues. I don't blame SARU or Meyer for opting to allow overseas based playersto the test team. I put the blame firmly at the door of SA's weak currency (I know I havn't visited E-bay in an age myself!). I wonder whether partnering will bear fruit. It's certainly the best idea put forward so far.

 

[TRF_heineken]

Well I think it's certainly a concern.

But at least the discussions have been more open than in the past.

And we don't yet know what's going to happen when SARU eventually do implement the centralised contracts.

But there are just so many teams our players can play for at premier level and get the money. We will always have an exodus. We are sort of used to it by now. If the Lions can make a team which is competitive and have just 3 Springboks in their 31 man squad, then all our teams can do it too. As much as it's a concern of the players, my bigger concern is the coaches and their inability to adapt.

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

I'd like for SARU to get more involved TBH. Centralized contracts would be the start of it and it's a good start. But I feel more is needed. I am not so much concerned about the Stormers, Sharks (despite this horror season), Bulls and Lions as I am about the Cheetahs and Kings. If SARU were to foot the bill for the Bok players alone then we'd see more of an even spread. Also, that'd free up the franchizes to do more to retain those important (to SR) staple players that won't play test rugby but fill the gaps at SR level. If we are dead set on keeping 6 teams I want SARU to help the Cheetahs, Lions and Kings financially since it's a mess they created in the frst place IMO. Those teams need to at least be in a position where they can retain and develop what they have rather than restart afresh every year. It's no coincidence the Cheetahs made the play-offs the one year they didn't lose 1/3 of their squad. So all this would mean expenditure from SARU.. from I don't know where the extra cash would come from. The link with Japanese clubs is a good one but since those teams have limits to the number of foreigners they can field it will only have a limited impact and do we really want our players to play the whole year if we can avoid it? It will also only be non test players that will be able to play in Japan otherwise they won't be available for test rugby.

 

[TRF_heineken]

I think the Lions have recovered very well. Their sponsorship with Emirates Airlines have certainly helped. And they finally have a good coaching team and a captain like they used to have in the Francois Pienaar era.

The Cheetahs are getting there too. Their main sponsor, Toyota has made a deal with a Japanese club which they also sponsor, to build a partnership. The Cheetahs will always have the problem of not keeping their players, but they always seem to get new diamonds in the rough. With Grey College and Shimlas as their feeding ground, they will get the players. With the drunkard coach no more there, I think they will improve.

My concern is the Bulls. Ludeke is past his sell-by date. There were stories this week that they can't understand what's going on with the management at the Bulls. How can the Bulls go on tour, and take their marketing director along, but leave their team physio at home? Anf if they knew that they would have to rest Pollard for a game, why not take Schoeman along, and then only call him up for the last game on tour, 5 days before the match???

 

[SomeOke]

I hate to be my usual pessimistic self but there is no way we can continue to compete with NZ rugby with things as they stand, let alone with 6 franchises. Over time we're just going to have to accept that we can probably only support one or two teams in any given year that are remotely competitive while the rest suffer.

Ultimately something is going to change, whether that means a champions league style, all inclusive tournament, with the best of all the local divisions facing off. Or we're going to have to move to Europe. Either way if we look at football as a benchmark, we can expect the Springboks to continue to do well (as we are selecting overseas based playes) while our local competition gets less and less competitive as world rugby centralizes around the money.

I understand that coaching in South Africa has been bad all round this season (barring Johan Ackerman), but I think SA rugby fans tend to be in denial about how bad things have gotten.

 

[TRF_heineken]

I hate to be my usual pessimistic self but there is no way we can continue to compete with NZ rugby with things as they stand, let alone with 6 franchises. Over time we're just going to have to accept that we can probably only support one or two teams in any given year that are remotely competitive while the rest suffer.

Ultimately something is going to change, whether that means a champions league style, all inclusive tournament, with the best of all the local divisions facing off. Or we're going to have to move to Europe. Either way if we look at football as a benchmark, we can expect the Springboks to continue to do well (as we are selecting overseas based playes) while our local competition gets less and less competitive as world rugby centralizes around the money.

I understand that coaching in South Africa has been bad all round this season (barring Johan Ackerman), but I think SA rugby fans tend to be in denial about how bad things have gotten.

There is no denial, at least not from my point of view.

I think if you look at each team's individual performance there are signs for both pessimism and optimism. The Bulls was 2nd on the log before they went on tour, and I was one of the guys heaping praise on the great comeback they were making after their terrible start. and in just 3 games, they slipped to 9th!

But I'm going to remain positive. I'll wait and see what happens with the contracting issues, which players sign for which franchise, and what the coaching setup will be. With Pieter Rossouw leaving the Bulls, it opens a spot for someone like Fourie Du Preez, who has been in Pretoria the last 3 months, keeping a low profile. Maybe he and Victor will take over from Ludeke, I don't know.

I'm also keen to see which players will return to our shores. And I'm glad to see top guys rather taking a contract in Japan, which allows them availability for Super Rugby and the Springboks.

 

[SomeOke]

There is no denial, at least not from my point of view.

I think if you look at each team's individual performance there are signs for both pessimism and optimism. The Bulls was 2nd on the log before they went on tour, and I was one of the guys heaping praise on the great comeback they were making after their terrible start. and in just 3 games, they slipped to 9th!

But I'm going to remain positive. I'll wait and see what happens with the contracting issues, which players sign for which franchise, and what the coaching setup will be. With Pieter Rossouw leaving the Bulls, it opens a spot for someone like Fourie Du Preez, who has been in Pretoria the last 3 months, keeping a low profile. Maybe he and Victor will take over from Ludeke, I don't know.

I'm also keen to see which players will return to our shores. And I'm glad to see top guys rather taking a contract in Japan, which allows them availability for Super Rugby and the Springboks.

You're right of course there is a lot more hope than I'm making out haha. We'll see what happens with these new string of coaches coming through, I'd say best case scenario though two teams will probably still be blow outs next year. As much as I think the Eastern Cape should get a little bit more love considering the talent they produce, there's no question we can't support six franchises.

 

[TRF_heineken]

You're right of course there is a lot more hope than I'm making out haha. We'll see what happens with these new string of coaches coming through, I'd say best case scenario though two teams will probably still be blow outs next year. As much as I think the Eastern Cape should get a little bit more love considering the talent they produce, there's no question we can't support six franchises.

We can support 6 Franchises.

But we have to put politics aside. Even though we all know that won't happen.

I think this is what should happen between franchises and the provincial clubs:

Bulls:
Limpopo Blue Bulls
Blue Bulls
Leopards

Lions:
Lions
Valke
Pumas

Sharks:
Sharks
Border

Cheetahs:
Cheetahs
Griffons

Stormers:
Western Province
Boland

Kings:
Eastern Province
SWD

Each franchise should first look at compiling a team out of those regions which they are affiliated with. Pick a squad of 50 players. That gives you 300 players in total.

Then, look at the Varsity Cup teams, and maybe get a few guys there, maybe 5 to 10.

And then, and only then, reach out to other Franchises to maybe buy someone they don't want. And if you are still coming short, look abroad.

We might struggle in the beginning, but in the long haul, it could bring in massive dividents. In the end, each Franchise will have a group of between 50 - 70 guys to pick from. You can then easily make a Super Rugby Squad, and then still have a good Vodacom Cup team for back-up.

I think some Franchises are sometimes looking at star quality too much and forget about the grafters/team players/versatility.

Look at the Pumas for instance. Guys like Marnus Schoeman, Rudi Matthee and Stefan Watermeyer has been completely overlooked by the franchises, and they are all guys I'd pick for Super Rugby, and even give them regular starts.

Then another thing that really makes me mad is that some coaches are reluctant to pull a guy off if he's playing bad. And here I'm going to point directly at JJ Engelbrecht! He has been very up and down the past 2 seasons, and more often down than up. While Burger Odendaal and William Small-Smith just sits on the bench waiting for a chance. Odendaal has been my pick as the in-form centre behind Damian De Allende for all the Super Rugby teams. I completely understand Small-Smith's request to not renew his contract and be allowed to talk to other franchises. And I hope Franco Smith signs him for the Cheetahs.

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

It's criminal a guy like Marnus Schoeman isn't playing Super rugby, I agree Heineken.

I do feel though there needs to be a greater focus at getting spread in SA. Just last year the Bulls had all of Victor Matfield, Paul Willemse, Flip van der Merwe, Jacques du Plessis and Grant Hattingh at lock. I mean why lure Hattingh away from the Lions if you already have 4 class locks? In the same breath the Stormers sat with Jean de Villiers, Juan de Jongh, Damian de Allende, Jaco Taute and Pat Howard at center. It's ridiculous the likes of Pat Howard not playing Super rugby or even Currie cup rugby and now he is lost and playing for Munster and will might even jog out for Ireland. Same with William Small-Smith for the Bulls leaving now after not getting a look in behind Serfontein, Engelbrecht and Odendaal. There is Beyers there as well.

This because a team like teh Cheetahs simply can't fot the bill. I say central contracts for Bok players and not just the core but the extended squad and then each team nominates a 30 man squad for SR and any team may opt to draft in someone not included in a 30 man squad from another team for that year.

- - - Updated - - -

Scratch that. I say each team nominates a starting XV and from there on its draft time! You could even broadcast a huge draft session prime time and that will be money in the bank. Get back a few overseas players with that money, stop paying for each franchizes top structures (those money hungry gravy train riders) and have a stream lined central administration and that is more cash for players in order to retain the best and we could easily have 6 competitive teams.

 

[TRF_heineken]

It's criminal a guy like Marnus Schoeman isn't playing Super rugby, I agree Heineken.

I do feel though there needs to be a greater focus at getting spread in SA. Just last year the Bulls had all of Victor Matfield, Paul Willemse, Flip van der Merwe, Jacques du Plessis and Grant Hattingh at lock. I mean why lure Hattingh away from the Lions if you already have 4 class locks? In the same breath the Stormers sat with Jean de Villiers, Juan de Jongh, Damian de Allende, Jaco Taute and Pat Howard at center. It's ridiculous the likes of Pat Howard not playing Super rugby or even Currie cup rugby and now he is lost and playing for Munster and will might even jog out for Ireland. Same with William Small-Smith for the Bulls leaving now after not getting a look in behind Serfontein, Engelbrecht and Odendaal. There is Beyers there as well.

This because a team like teh Cheetahs simply can't fot the bill. I say central contracts for Bok players and not just the core but the extended squad and then each team nominates a 30 man squad for SR and any team may opt to draft in someone not included in a 30 man squad from another team for that year.

- - - Updated - - -

Scratch that. I say each team nominates a starting XV and from there on its draft time! You could even broadcast a huge draft session prime time and that will be money in the bank. Get back a few overseas players with that money, stop paying for each franchizes top structures (those money hungry gravy train riders) and have a stream lined central administration and that is more cash for players in order to retain the best and we could easily have 6 competitive teams.

Well, I dislike the draft idea completely. I feel that players must have a say in who they want to play for. Rugby in our country still has a patriotism mark in it.

Ulrich Beyers is in France, he left before the Super Rugby started. Small-Smith was injured and we drafted Odendaal up, and he did very well when he got his chance. Small-Smith is injury prone, and that counted against him this year.

As for the Bulls lock situation. It's something I'm still trying to wrap my head around. We got Hattingh as a utility forward, just like Jacques Du Plessis, and both of them was first used as flankers. But we still had Flip, Vic and Willemse. Then Willemse left for France, and now Jacques is doing the same. Vic will retire after the world cup and then we're left with Hattingh and Flip. And Flip might also be a loss if he does go abroad. Then we're going to have to get the youngsters in. Luckily we some good youngsters, that monster who got a yellow for the baby boks who was in Affies, Irne Hebst and Marvin Orie.

I don't know what is the best idea to go about. I think some of the youngsters just needs to get the chance, and then put the ball in their court and see what happens. Luckily, the Currie Cup this year will be a great way to give them the chance.

 

[NamWarrior]

So I was just having a bit of a panic attack just looking at the amount of guys leaving our shores again at the end of the year. And add to that the Kings are joining again so that's another team to feed.

Just below illustrates that we have 4 matchday XV's worth solid players playing outside of SA. And I'm not so much interested in the possible Bokke than I am in proven Super rugby solidity. We need these 'brick-and-mortar' players to guide the youngsters early on and provide the base for 'star' players to play off of. This list is also just off the top of my head and many of those feature in Premiership/Top14/etc XV's of the week.

1 Steven Kitshoff / Heinke van der Merwe / JC Janse van Rensburg / Schalk Ferreira
2 Craig Burden / Bismarck du Plessis / Schalk Brits / Bandise Maku / Chiliboy Ralepele
3 Wiehann Herbst / Frans Malherbe / Brian Mujati / WP Nel
4 Francois van der Merwe / Paul Wilemse / Franco van der Merwe / Bakkies Botha
5 Andries Bekker / Juandre Kruger / Jandre Marais / Rynhardt Elstadt
6 Francois Louw / Heinrich Brussow / Lappies Labuschagne / Dewald Potgieter
7 Bernard le Roux / Jacques du Plessis / Josh Strauss / Ashley Johnson
8 Duane Vermeulen / CJ Stander / Pierre Spies / Antonie Claassen
9 Fourie du Preez / Rory Kockott / Charl McCleod / Nic Groom / Francis Hougaard*
10 Monre Steyn / Johan Goosen / Ruan Pienaar / Peter Grant
11/14 Bryan Habana / G van den Heever / Gio Aplon / Wandile Mjekevu
12/13 Pat Howard / Jaque Fourie / Rob Ebersohn / Wynand Olivier
15 Louis Ludik / Riaan Viljoen / Willie le Roux* / Zane Kirchner

Luckily Jano Vermaak and Jacques Potgieter are on their way back to SA. I hope that trend continues. I don't blame SARU or Meyer for opting to allow overseas based playersto the test team. I put the blame firmly at the door of SA's weak currency (I know I havn't visited E-bay in an age myself!).I wonder whether partnering will bear fruit. It's certainly the best idea put forward so far.

what does that mean exactly?

it makes for grim reading when you look at the mass exodus you have each season.

i love watching super rugby when it is on in the UK, although i prefer the stormers i loved watching the Bulls side that won the competition 3 years out of 4, what a side they had! Sharks and the Stormers were also challenging. it is definitely changed days now.

i have always thought that it's not a bad thing having a number of players playing abroad as it gives game-time to the next batch of players coming through but i feel as if there are too many players leaving which is having an effect on the Super Rugby sides and ultimately the senior Bok side, especially when you consider a lot of these players become eligible for other countries (this has to change IMO)

hopefully things will change as i hate watching the NZ teams get the better of their SA counterparts.

 

[TRF_heineken]

what does that mean exactly?

it makes for grim reading when you look at the mass exodus you have each season.

i love watching super rugby when it is on in the UK, although i prefer the stormers i loved watching the Bulls side that won the competition 3 years out of 4, what a side they had! Sharks and the Stormers were also challenging. it is definitely changed days now.

i have always thought that it's not a bad thing having a number of players playing abroad as it gives game-time to the next batch of players coming through but i feel as if there are too many players leaving which is having an effect on the Super Rugby sides and ultimately the senior Bok side, especially when you consider a lot of these players become eligible for other countries (this has to change IMO)

hopefully things will change as i hate watching the NZ teams get the better of their SA counterparts.

True

But we have to discard this year, even though we still have 3 teams that have a chance at the playoffs. Who knows, maybe one of them can even reach the finals and win the tournament.

Ever since this year started the focus was put on the World Cup, and the Super Rugby teams bought into that idea, by resting their springboks for matches, which didn't happen in the past and some of those matches ended with our team(s) losing the game. I'm not saying that we would've won if our Boks played, but I certainly think the outcome would have been more favourable.

But, with that we have seen some great players coming through. For example Vincent Koch and Burger Odendaal who directly prospered from the rest of Springbok players.

Another thing is that our senior Bok side will be able to call on the overseas based players. even though I think the majority will consist of local players. The exodus is expected, it happens at its worst just after the World Cup. And I think at least this year there has been an emphasis on being aware well ahead of time of who will be available next year and who won't.