Coloureds vs Whites XVs

[ruggabee]

Ok so I was wondering how the best whites would do against the best non whites. I didn't make this thread to shame a specific ethnic background but am genuinely interested in the advantages that comes with it. Genetically speaking there are the Pacific Islanders who are blessed with pure power and acceleration, the players of African descent who are commonly blessed with speed. How would a fully white team fair against the best of these naturally blessed rugby athletes? Of course I'm not saying that white people are incapable of being born with natural athletic ability and there is a level of coaching that comes into play but if we hypothetically did a player by player match up who do you think would win and would genetics play a significant role? These would be the best of both sides that I'd like to see a match up of.

White XV:

1. Cian Healy
2. Bismarck du plessis
3. Dan Cole/Owen Franks/David Wilson? (I'm not sure of any standout tightheads atm)
4. Eben Etzebeth
5. Paul O'Connell
6. Sean O'Brien
7. Sam Cane
8. Kieran Read
9. Fourie du Preez
10. Dan Carter
11. Ben Smith
12. Jean de Villiers
13. Brian O'Driscoll
14. Tommy Bowe
15. Mike Brown

Coloured XV:

1. Tendai Mtawarira
2. Hika Elliot?
3. Census Johnston
4. Sébastien Vahaamahina
5. Joe Tekori
6. Jerome Kaino
7. Thierry Dusautoir
8. Billy Vunipola
9. Will Genia
10. Aaron Cruden
11. Julian Savea
12. Wesley Fofana
13. Manu Tuilagi
14. Hosea Gear
15. Israel Folau

With equal preparation and coaching I think the coloureds would win. Ridiculous power, pace and flair in that backline. The whites look like they have it in the forwards although the coloureds are still huge so who knows. A clash of these two teams would be played at such a frantic pace and it would be brutal I think. What do you guys think? Do people of African, Pacific Island descent etc have an edge? I know at school level they do especially the Islanders but do people think they are superior at a senior level? I was going to list a 23 vs 23 but decided I couldn't think of enough players!

 

[Big Ewis]

lol and you'd call this of course the "politically incorrect tour" or smt similar

Well it's a very interesting topic, in fact. What white people bring to Rugby as a general tendency, and what the "colored" bring.

Obviously tremendous pace and athleticism with the C's, the whites a lot more rigid and sheer force and more technique.
It should be noted Thierry Dusautoir is mixed.

And it's funny, I occasionally play that game in my mind of an all French white XV vs all French "colored" XV.

Scrum would go W.
W team would struggle to keep up with that C backline.
It could go either way, as easy a way out as this answer sounds. No clear winner.

 

[jonny24]

All I have to say is that I can't wait for Conrad Smith to find this.

 

[Aristodemus]

Perhaps we could try segregating leagues.....

 

[ruggabee]

Haha I was doing my best to word this thread post in a way that didn't step on anyone's toes but I'm sure most will see it for what it is as an unbiased interest.

What you mention of the differences between the C's and W's is similar to what I had in my mind. Where the W's lack in natural athleticism they make up with having a very solid system within their teams. It's also something I've felt has contributed to the styles between the NH and SH. I think the SH teams have benefited from the injection of Pacific Island talent and it's influenced the way they like to throw the ball about and play at a high tempo. The injection of guys like Fofana for France and Tuilagi for England has brought a line breaking threat similar to that we see in the SH teams. Say in Ireland for example, I can't see producing a player with the physical ability of a Nonu, Savea or Tuilagi and that will always be a slight disadvantage.

Lol when you say "play that game" I actually did that a few times playing Rugby 06 and 08. A midfield of Nonu and Umaga broke a lot of tackles along with Jason Robinson running around everyone.

But back to the topic, I agree it's too difficult to call looking at those line ups because on one hand the W's have their strengths up front while the C's dominate out wide. Would be very fun to see. I'd like to see the Pacific Island team come back. I remember watching them Lauaki and Sivivatu causing many problems for the ABs.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

Yeah...

 

[ruggabee]

Perhaps we could try segregating leagues.....

Why would would you want to do that?

 

[Draggs]

Oh for ****s sake.

 

[Feicarsinn]

Wonderful idea.

 

[marianodan]

All I have to say is that I can't wait for Conrad Smith to find this.

Just the thread we were needing! I wonder in which of the teams argentines should play according to him

(obviously none argentine would make these XVs, but with some wishful thinking..)

 

[snoopy snoopy dog dog]

Would somewhere in South Africa be a suitable venue to stage this game?

 

[jessta]

Aaron cruden coloured? Ridiculous concept but would be rather interesting

 

[Big Ewis]

Just the thread we were needing! I wonder in which of the teams argentines should play according to him

(obviously none argentine would make these XVs, but with some wishful thinking..)

mmm...would take Lobbe on that white XV somewhere in the 3rd row.

Aaron cruden coloured? Ridiculous concept but would be rather interesting

well he ain't exactly the specimen Hitler would've promoted...

Oh and hey, to stir some shhit up a bit: where do you put Dan Carter ?? (OP puts him as white)

 

[ruggabee]

As the last post has mentioned this isn't supposed to be entirely sensible. I'm not expecting there to ever be such a match up. Asking questions like "Should we begin to segregate leagues?" is missing the point entirely and raising offence where there is none to begin with. Do a quick search on Polynesians and rugby or the the dominance of African rooted persons in explosive and even endurance based sports, and you'll find a whole load of articles to go through. I was simply bringing a what if scenario that we could play in our heads. A bit of fun and in a way comparing the styles that could be contrasted due to these physical make ups. There's a reason the Japanese bring a quick game and aren't so proficient up front. There's a reason the Polynesians are known for their explosive running and big hits. This is meant to be slightly "ridiculous" and not meant to be taken with such seriousness because it is actually interesting if you can bring yourselves to look past the political correctiveness.

@Big Ewis: Hah yeah I was a bit confused on the Dan Carter choice. He supposedly has Samoan Indian somewhere in his lineage.

 

[Big Ewis]

ruggabee, don't you know anything about existence in this modern world ? People will take offense to anything that touches on those topics, it doesn't MATTER that your intentions look innocent or not. It's engrained in their subconscious, they're conditioned to be offended (by something that doesn't even concern them), they're formatted to react aggressively and with reprimand.

You can't pierce the bubble buddy, you can't talk about certain things, you have to keep them locked up in that quiet place and for some unexplained reason never ever get even close to it.
Welcome to the 21st century: the age of progress, equality and tolerance. What a fabulous world we've created

 

[ruggabee]

ruggabee, don't you know anything about existence in this modern world ? People will take offense to anything that touches on those topics, it doesn't MATTER that your intentions look innocent or not. It's engrained in their subconscious, they're conditioned to be offended (by something that doesn't even concern them), they're formatted to react aggressively and with reprimand.

You can't pierce the bubble buddy, you can't talk about certain things, you have to keep them locked up in that quiet place and for some unexplained reason never ever get even close to it.
Welcome to the 21st century: the age of progress, equality and tolerance. What a fabulous world we've created

Haha well said. I'm not that bothered if anyone takes an interest to this. The thread is here for whatever opinion you may have on it.

 

[Jaguares]

Some questions:

1- Sam Cane is better than Michael Hooper??? Are u crazy?

2- The old du Preez is better than the young TJ Perenara?

3- The old O'Connell better than Sam Whitelock or flip van der merwe?

4- Aaron Cruden better than Quade Cooper or Luke McAllister??

Mmmm...

Returning to the subject, I think whites have a better second row. Not many blacks locks are really good so I think that the locks are the difference for whites. With respect to the first rows, back rows and backline is very equal between both teams

 

[TheSaffycen]

It is an interesting thing in all sports you have this conversation. If you look at football you have a mix of players all over the pitch apart from goalkeeper where you have only 2 or 3 world class black keepers. In American Football you have Mostly Black players outside of the scrimmage and inside its a mix of white/Polynesian/Black. In rugby you have more white players in general because it is a more upper class sport and a lot of them are public school boys. That might sound a bit backwards but if you go through the England team(who i'm talking about upperclass as I don't know outside of that) most of them are upperclass people who got too play rugby and join clubs. With who would win this hypothetical game I don't think there is much of a difference in the teams if you selected the best white players vs the best coloured players, at a professional level everyone is physically fit and strong so it comes down to the mind and handling of players. This game wouldn't be won with physicality but with wit and execution of plays. Looking at the teams the c's would win because they have the best IC in the world best winger and best fullback. Fofana is the best Inside Centre in the world but not because he is physically strong and the fastest its because he is the most technically gifted and smartest.

 

[big ginger 8]

Not the teams I'd pick but looking at those teams I think the second teams lack of a lineout would greatly hamper them. Weather would also play a big part. I'd probably back the first team to win as they do also have athletic freaks.

 

[ruggabee]

@conrad: 1. Up for debate much like the other threads on wingers, fullbacks and fly halves. 2. Perenara isn't even an established international yet. I'd say the way du Preez plays doesn't affect his game as he's always been a tactician rather than a sniper. 3. I took into consideration POC's leadership qualities and never say die attitude but I did have Whitelock in mind as he's got all the skills. 4. See 1.

@The Saffycen: It is interesting how it can be seen over many different sports. I'm don't follow the NFL but it does sound like they dominate outside the scrimmage due to their genetics; however, that's not to say that players of other ethnicities can't succeed there, it's just less common.
The whole upper class schooling thing is something I forgot about. I understand the big rugby schools over here are mostly private. Correct me if I'm wrong though. But in my time when I was at school in New Zealand it definitely wasn't a class thing so maybe it helps their access to players of all kinds of ethnic background ie. Pacific descent. I know where I am now in Ireland there is a fee to be paid for the season to join a club and it certainly wouldn't be something you'd pay for if you were low on income.
Yes, professionally most ethnicities are evenly match physically and the big nations regardless of their ethnic base do well because of modern sports nutrition, gym facilities and tactical coaching. However, you could then point out professionalism has made the game more even but genetics still has a role to play. I remember playing rugby in school where the Polynesians had a distinct advantage from a younger age even up to 1st XV rugby; however, it was the ones who also possessed an excellent rugby brain that excelled into professional rugby. I still believe that no matter how much time you spend in the gym, if you don't have the genetics, there will always be a plateau. You can't gym your way or teach your way into developing the athletic abilities of someone like Savea, Lomu, Tuilagis etc etc.
@big ginger 8: Yup those line ups are only personal with a lot of positions being very difficult to choose with the amount of world class players there are out there. The second row for the C's were really difficult to choose because there aren't really any world class locks with that ethnic descent.

At this point when looking at "professional" rugby only it's clear that ethnicity doesn't decide who wins but I think it heavily influences the style of play a team uses.