Autumn internationals England - post lions and argentina tour

[Scotty]

With the lions and argentina tours all done with, whats next for england and who will be in the matchday 23

1. Mako/Genge/Marler
2. George/hartley/LCD/TT
3. Sinkler/Cole/Williams
4. Itoje/launch
5. Kruise/Lawes/Iseikwe
6. Robshaw/Hask/Wilson/Armand
7. Underhill/T Curry
8. Billy/ Hughes
9. Youngs/Care/Maunder/Townsend(not an intetnational yet but played great and handled the pressure of being starting 9 in prem semi and final against top teams at 22)
10. Ford/faz
11. Watson/earle
12. Slade/Francais/Teo
13. JJ/Daly(better center than winger)
14. Nowell/Solomona (when D improves)
15. Brown/Watson ( this is what i want to see) Haley (if he gets a chance)

What does everyone thing? And anyone ive missed.
Watson is future at FB IMO.
Who had a good tour in argentina but isnt quite ready.

Just a general discussion about Englands future.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

For the first time I think we have real choices as to how we want to play across various positions. A lighter team that is mobile? Itoje and Lawes at lock with Robshaw and Curry as flankers. More power? Kruis and Lunch with Hask and Underhill. Mix and match as we want. It gives Jones more tactical flexibility than any England team for many many years. Also remember there is the ever present possibility of a wild Manu managing to to get through 5 games without breaking, which gives that same tactical flexibility in midfiled with Manu/Teo playing boshers and JJ/Daly for speed. I'd love to see Jones foster a team that doesn't play just 1 type of game but can play numerous types. England have begun to show a tactical flexibility under Jones that not many teams have, it's part of the reason we have finished every game under him on top.

 

[BPM]

With the lions and argentina tours all done with, whats next for england and who will be in the matchday 23

1. Mako/Genge/Marler
2. George/hartley
3. Sinkler/Cole/Williams
4. Itoje/launch
5. Kruise/Lawes/Iseikwe
6. Robshaw/Hask/Wilson/Armand
7. Underhill/T Curry
8. Billy/ Hughes
9. Youngs/Care/Maunder/Townsend(not an intetnational yet but played great and handled the pressure of being starting 9 in prem semi and final against top teams at 22)
10. Ford/faz
11. Watson/earle
12. Slade/Francais/Teo
13. JJ/Daly(better center than winger)
14. Nowell/Solomona (when D improves)
15. Brown/Watson ( this is what i want to see) Haley (if he gets a chance)

What does everyone thing? And anyone ive missed.
Watson is future at FB IMO.
Who had a good tour in argentina but isnt quite ready.

Just a general discussion about Englands future.

Don't forget Eddie has said that he'll rest our Lions tourists for the AIs.

Personally, I think he'll change that to resting the players that had the most minutes in the tests (Mako, George, Itoje, Farrell, Daly and Watson). However, based upon the Argentina tour, I think we have enough to win all three AIs without our Lions, so Eddie could well stick to his original statement - particularly given that we'll probably have an additional injection of quality from Billy and Youngs.

If we rest the Lions starters, I'd like to see:

1. Marler
2. Hartley
3. Cole
4. Launchbury
5. Kruis
6. Robshaw
7. Underhill or a Curry
8. Vunipola
9. Youngs
10. Ford
11. May
12. Te'o
13. Joseph
14. Nowell
15. Brown

If Eddie doesn't rest them after all, I'd go with:

1. Marler
2. George
3. Cole
4. Itoje
5. Kruis
6. Robshaw
7. Underhill or a Curry
8. Vunipola
9. Youngs
10. Ford
11. Daly
12. Farrell
13. Joseph
14. Nowell
15. Watson

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

For the first time I think we have real choices as to how we want to play across various positions. A lighter team that is mobile? Itoje and Lawes at lock with Robshaw and Curry as flankers. More power? Kruis and Lunch with Hask and Underhill. Mix and match as we want. It gives Jones more tactical flexibility than any England team for many many years. Also remember there is the ever present possibility of a wild Manu managing to to get through 5 games without breaking, which gives that same tactical flexibility in midfiled with Manu/Teo playing boshers and JJ/Daly for speed. I'd love to see Jones foster a team that doesn't play just 1 type of game but can play numerous types. England have begun to show a tactical flexibility under Jones that not many teams have, it's part of the reason we have finished every game under him on top.

We do have choice, almost too much. I doubt it will have escaped EJ's notice that RWCs are generally won by settled sides, but at the moment I don't think you could definitely say what any unit will be in 2019, which is a bit of a double edged sword.

Agree totally that we need to be able to flex our style of play. Watching some Super rugby today I'd say that's pretty easy. Just set up a maul and they'll be scratching their heads.

 

[Scotty]

Does anyone think watson will actually get a chance at FB or just brown? So fed up of brown now, granted he is solid but we need a new talant like watson who needs experience there at an international level and against argentina would be perfect tbh.

What happens if brown gets injured we dont have international experienced replacement though i think watson is good enough.

As for manu, forgot about him as he's been broken for ever. Piers francias he looked dangerous need to see more of him

 

[Goodey]

I don't think Genge-Hartley-Williams functioned very well as a front row unit in Argentina, particularly at the set piece. Mako and Sinckler will be involved but are unlikely to provide that solidity. I'd keep Cole around for now.

Ford-Farrell should absolutely be stuck with, bringing in Slade or Francis ahead of Ford is tinkering for the sake of it.

Itoje is so much better in the second row. Keep him there. Lawes has comfortably outperformed Kruis this summer which I didn't expect, but it's a nice problem to have.

Very undecided on what to do with the back three. Performance in Argentina suggests there's value in Mike Brown yet.

 

[Scotty]

I don't think Genge-Hartley-Williams functioned very well as a front row unit in Argentina, particularly at the set piece. Mako and Sinckler will be involved but are unlikely to provide that solidity. I'd keep Cole around for now.

Ford-Farrell should absolutely be stuck with, bringing in Slade or Francis ahead of Ford is tinkering for the sake of it.

Itoje is so much better in the second row. Keep him there. Lawes has comfortably outperformed Kruis this summer which I didn't expect, but it's a nice problem to have.

Very undecided on what to do with the back three. Performance in Argentina suggests there's value in Mike Brown yet.

Agree with pretty much everything you said but as for ford_faz theres no point changing it fir the sake of it but if francias proves himself as a strong 12 then it could happen than ford loses out as i dont think faz is the best 12 out there. I like slade in a couple of years and francias showed what he can do in argentina it was a good audition for him and slade tbh (but slades not 13 at this level as he was in argentina)

As for hookers i missed out LCD AND TT on my original list of players. Wonder if hartley will get phased out?

Front row mako george sinks are our best combo but all make great impact players as does genge but hopfully that line up will start genge on bench with LCD IMO but williams vs cole

Harsh on marler and hartley but mako is the best and genge he a powerful carrier and not bad at the breakdown. hartley is being brought off earlier and earlier i think EJ is phasing him out and putting him to the bench he can come on and bring stability but not impact. Like LCD could.

George has to be nailed on after this lions tour

Watson needs to be playing FB sooner rather than later

 

[BPM]

Well there's a fair bit of rugby to be played between now and the AIs, so I think early season form will influence certain decisions.

Personally, I hope Eddie sticks to his word and doesn't select the Lions tourists for the AIs. I know that might sound strange, but I think 2018 (calendar year not season) will be a massive year for us. We have a 3 game tour to SA next summer and the ABs next November, so I'd rather we rest those guys now rather than risk burning them out.

As I said before, I think we can win all 3 AIs with the squad that toured Argentina plus a few players that missed touring (Lions or England) through injury or other reasons i.e. Billy, Youngs, LCD, Taylor etc.

We can still afford to experiment a bit for now to build experience and depth, but 2018 is all about finding a settled side and developing the familiarity and the tactics to consistently put in dominant performances.

Last season I was disappointed by our 6N campaign. I know we won and results are king, but the Scotland game was the only genuinely good performance and we looked nowhere near as good as we had in Australia. This season I want to see a clean sweep in the AIs and another 6N win - ideally a grand slam. We have Ireland and Wales at home and while the trips to Murrayfield and Paris will be tough, we should be absolutely confident of winning both. Even if we don't get a slam, winning would make us the first team in history to do 3 back-to-back 6N, but I really want to see us lay a marker down and dominate.

 

[MarkyH]

Think Ford was fantastic in Argentina, and doubts of him at 10 should be long gone by now. Farrell at 12 so be it. Again, as others have posted we should have the ability to bosh it or pass it as we have many different options but it is important we have a settled game plan towards 2019, and a working plan b and c

Personally players who played a lot on the Lions tour should be rested, even all of them if need be. We should win the AIs with who's left, and even a defeat at the expense of experimenting is fine by me. Come the 2018 6N throuth to WC2019 we need a to build our team, ourgame plans and stick to it. And the young lads that don't make it in the next 2 years are still young enough to shine post 2019.

Exciting times, but we need to get it right!

 

[BPM]

Even if Eddie rests all of the Lions, we could still put out a very good 23.

I'd go with:

1. Genge
2. Hartley
3. Williams
4. Ewels
5. Launchbury
6. Robshaw
7. Underhill/B or T. Curry
8. Vunipola
9. Youngs
10. Ford
11. May
12. Lozowski/Francis
13. Marchant/Tuilagi (unlikely)
14. Yarde/Solomona
15. Brown

16. Taylor/Cowan-Dickie
17. Mullan
18. Collier
19. Symons/Barrow
20. Wilson
21. Maunder/Townsend/Robson
22. Slade
23. Haley

My / positions would really be 'either/or' depending on form.

Wilson over the Currys on the bench is a tough call, but I think he arguably provides the best back row bench cover across 6, 7 and 8 at a push.

I really hope Marchant gets a shot as I think he is an out and out 13 and I think we missed that in Argentina IMO.

I would also be tempted to use the resting Lions as an opportunity to look at some fringe locks such as Symons or Barrow. Isiekwe looks like a massive talent but I doubt he'll see much game time so I'd rather see some other options for the time being.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Wasn't impressed with Williams at all for England, Collier was far better. I sound like a broken record but props should be judged on their scrummaging first. Collier does enough away from the scrum (he's not Sinckler but he's not eifion lewis Roberts) that I'm not worried about that being an issue, despite being a set piece focused prop.

I hope Cole is rested, he's been putting in shifts for Leicester but hasn't been able to step up to international level this season. Hopefully a bit of a rest will see him come back a bit, as he's been run into the ground for club and country for years.

 

[Scotty]

Even if Eddie rests all of the Lions, we could still put out a very good 23.

I'd go with:

1. Genge
2. Hartley
3. Williams
4. Ewels
5. Launchbury
6. Robshaw
7. Underhill/B or T. Curry
8. Vunipola
9. Youngs
10. Ford
11. May
12. Lozowski/Francis
13. Marchant/Tuilagi (unlikely)
14. Yarde/Solomona
15. Brown

16. Taylor/Cowan-Dickie
17. Mullan
18. Collier
19. Symons/Barrow
20. Wilson
21. Maunder/Townsend/Robson
22. Slade
23. Haley

Earle instead of may personal prefferance as i cant see may having a long term future with england

I hope to see lions players on the bench tbh so a bench of

16 mako
17 george
18 sinks
19 itoje
20 hask
21 maunder ( with youngs starting)
22 farrell
23 watson

JJ at 13 as he bearly played ans start daly i know hes played alot we need the centres cover on the pitch unless we start francais at 12 then have teo watson on the bench. Give faz a rest

 

[BPM]

Earle instead of may personal prefferance as i cant see may having a long term future with england

I hope to see lions players on the bench tbh so a bench of

16 mako
17 george
18 sinks
19 itoje
20 hask
21 maunder ( with youngs starting)
22 farrell
23 watson

JJ at 13 as he bearly played ans start daly i know hes played alot we need the centres cover on the pitch unless we start francais at 12 then have teo watson on the bench. Give faz a rest

Why would Jonny May not have a long term future with England? He has some weaknesses in his game but he has improved and he is only 27 and is one of the quickest (if not the quickest) wingers we have. His try scoring record is decent too (better than 1 in 3), so unless Solomona or Earle or Cokanasiga really steps up and shows they're significantly better than him, he stays IMO.

One wild card could Alex Lewington. He's been off the radar due to injury and LI being in the Championship, but before that he was definitely knocking on the door. If he can play as well as he did last time they were in the Premiership, he could be a surprise contender.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

Think Ford was fantastic in Argentina, and doubts of him at 10 should be long gone by now.

He was. And I'd agree with you if all internationals were running fests in the sun. But they're not, and question marks over his defence and temperament remain. His supporters and Faz's are probably pretty entrenched by now, so there's little point in rehashing the same old arguments (although I'm always up for that...). I guess it will be Ford and Faz for the foreseeable unless someone like Francis or Devoto makes a really strong bid for 12. In which case things get seriously interesting.

 

[Scotty]

Why would Jonny May not have a long term future with England? He has some weaknesses in his game but he has improved and he is only 27 and is one of the quickest (if not the quickest) wingers we have. His try scoring record is decent too (better than 1 in 3), so unless Solomona or Earle or Cokanasiga really steps up and shows they're significantly better than him, he stays IMO.

One wild card could Alex Lewington. He's been off the radar due to injury and LI being in the Championship, but before that he was definitely knocking on the door. If he can play as well as he did last time they were in the Premiership, he could be a surprise contender.

Maybe just personal prefference on my part i dont rate him that highly tbh but thats just me, your prob right

Alex lewington ive seen him play on championship final second leg against donny knights (who i was cheering for being from there) he was electric, so much pace . Shame i didnt see cockanasiga cos he was injured

 

[BPM]

Yeah Lewington looked good when he came back at the end of last season although he did murder a good few chances in the play-off finals that a player of his ability should easily have finished off.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

I think Irish have a couple of wild cards Jonny Williams in the centre could make a good case for himself.
I think Irish will have a real challenge to keep some of those players if they go down again.

Wasn't impressed with Williams at all for England, Collier was far better. I sound like a broken record but props should be judged on their scrummaging first. Collier does enough away from the scrum (he's not Sinckler but he's not eifion lewis Roberts) that I'm not worried about that being an issue, despite being a set piece focused prop.

I hope Cole is rested, he's been putting in shifts for Leicester but hasn't been able to step up to international level this season. Hopefully a bit of a rest will see him come back a bit, as he's been run into the ground for club and country for years.

Yeh and it's annoying as Tigers are quite good with the props rotating, Balmain playing poor and being found out affected the rotation alot.

We need to look for a promising genge type TH for next season esp with Rizzo and IMO Cilliers likely off should free up some cap to go looking. (although Ben Betts might be readfy for a promotion next season who knows, Heyes is a big unit in our U18's).

 

[BPM]

Williams seems to have been injured for ages. He can't have played much at all last season.

The London Irish academy seems to be in good health though with Williams, Brophy-Clews, Cokanasiga and Parton all doing well at U20 level over the last couple of seasons.

 

[MarkyH]

He was. And I'd agree with you if all internationals were running fests in the sun. But they're not, and question marks over his defence and temperament remain. His supporters and Faz's are probably pretty entrenched by now, so there's little point in rehashing the same old arguments (although I'm always up for that...). I guess it will be Ford and Faz for the foreseeable unless someone like Francis or Devoto makes a really strong bid for 12. In which case things get seriously interesting.

Oh I'm more than open for someone to take any players place. I don't have any allegiance to any player other than Maro (swooon) so I'm all about the team (that's what happens when you support Nat League 1 Rugby). I do like Ford and love his passing game, and in Argentina we got to see him run too. For such a smaller player he takes the ball to the line every time, but you're correct, his defence and temperament are still area's of concern. But we mustn't forget that the current 10/12 combo has worked pretty well so far. However, a couple of times on the Lions tour Farrell passed to early, and too wide, but what he brings over Ford is so significant in the areas you mention is the reason I would pick him over Ford if I had to pick one. I'm just happy with it at the moment.

If Francis, Slade or Loz prove to be significantly better then so be it. But If I was EJ I'd be looking at a completely different player to come in at 12 than another playmaker, but Ford (and Faz to an extent) should be aware we have talent ready to do those roles better.

To summarise... Better players are better players. Doesn't matter the name or club... Its all good for England

 

[Scotty]

I truely hope underhill amd tje curry twins smash it early season so to earn more international experience to have a reletivly experanced and solid 7 ready for the RWC. Same goes for kvesic, never been a fan but baxter can drag him up im hoping