Argentina and the Southern Hemisphere...

[Big Ewis]

hey guys,
anybody believe that in a few years (decades ?) Argentina will become on of the big SH teams, as in, we'll be saying the big 4 ? Like they'll beat France and England and Wales often, get pretty good results in the RChampionship and won't be underdogs anymore in there...will develop to the point of upsetting NZ once in a while...etc...

or would they remain *Argentina* of this modern 1998-2012 day, just a little better since playing those test matches in the RC...?

 

[nickdnz]

I think eventually they may well be up there with NZ, Aus and SA as a 'big four', but a lot more has got to happen before this becomes the case. They need either their own very good domestic competition that is professional, or get a few Super Rugby teams. Right now the players are good, but they're developed mainly in the Top 14, with a few others playing in other leagues. It's very difficult to produce top quality players when you're selecting from many different leagues and any kind of standard becomes quite unclear in regard to selections. Combinations are mainly developed purely at international level, where as in South Africa, Australia and New Zealand, combinations often exist within Super Rugby teams which are carried onto International level.

Basically, I think Argentina could become a world power in rugby on the provision that they are given Super Rugby teams or develop their own very high quality professional competition (such as Aviva Premiership/Top 14). With out that, I think Argentina may well struggle to become the superpower in rugby they're capabile of being.

 

[Mooly]

It would be fantastic if we could conceive Argentina as part of our Super Rugby tournament. Reducing each of the countries teams by one would allow a tournament with Argentinian participation with 4 teams (Super 16?). I imagine there'd be a lot of machinations in order for this to occur to say nothing of fan sentiment losing some lower performing teams (Lions/Force/Blues?) and would have wider ranging ripple effect on the provinces they occupy but as blue sky dreaming goes, I'm all for it. As an Aussie, I'm all for deepening our talent pool!

This would be the ticket to improving the standard of Argentinian rugby (not to place a value judgement on it) and potentially stop players going to Top14/Aviva.

 

[Nielsch]

Argentina has four really strong unions / provinces that could potentially play in an expanded SuperRugby tournament; Buenos Aires, Cordoba, Tucuman and Rosario.

 

[smartcooky]

Argentina has four really strong unions / provinces that could potentially play in an expanded SuperRugby tournament; Buenos Aires, Cordoba, Tucuman and Rosario.

They would really need to have five teams to make a Conference, but I feel that is not really a problem as Buenos Aires is strong enough as a rugby location that it could easly be divided into two teams

West Buenos Aires - La Matanza, and all the districts in the west to Escobar, Pilar & Lujan
East Buenos Aires - All the districts in the east from La Plata and Berisso

Add that to the three you mentioned...

Tucuman
Cordoba
Rosario

...and you have your five- team conference.

 

[welshglory]

They could have a few US teams to fill up the conference as well. I think that the US and Canada could have their own domestic comp though

 

[drif73r]

They would really need to have five teams to make a Conference, but I feel that is not really a problem as Buenos Aires is strong enough as a rugby location that it could easly be divided into two teams

West Buenos Aires - La Matanza, and all the districts in the west to Escobar, Pilar & Lujan
East Buenos Aires - All the districts in the east from La Plata and Berisso

Add that to the three you mentioned...

Tucuman
Cordoba
Rosario

...and you have your five- team conference.

I think Cuyo should be the fifth team, even if it's not as good as the other four. Mendoza is Argentina's 4th most populated city and I think some good talent can emerge from the region if it's given the chance to develop. Besides, even if I was born in Buenos Aires and I support Las Ãguilas, they haven't been really dominant since 2008 or so, so I don't see how they should have the privilege of having two teams in the competition.

Anyway, I don't think there's a realistic chance that Sanzar would let five new teams in the Super Rugby. Maybe Argentina will have to start with one or two. If the latter, I think that a good idea would be to have an Eastern team based on the river zones (Río de la Plata, Paraná) comprising the Unions of Buenos Aires, Rosario, Santa Fe, etc., and another Western/Centre team comprising the Unions of Córdoba, Cuyo, Tucumán, etc. Well, I'm sure it would be difficult for these Unions to form this two franchises without trouble, but I would like to see it happen if only 2 teams are allowed, so no big regions are left out.

 

[Colombia]

Argentina has four really strong unions / provinces that could potentially play in an expanded SuperRugby tournament; Buenos Aires, Cordoba, Tucuman and Rosario.

You say that but their "Saxons" or 2nd team plays in the Vodacom Cup which is a third tier competition in South Africa. One would question whether they really do have enough for even two strong S15 sides with their best players competing in Europe.

 

[Icemn]

They might have 4 teams, but aren't all their players playing in Europe :? will the ARG teams have enough money for those European players to go and play locally :? i don't think so...</SPAN>

 

[psychic duck]

You say that but their "Saxons" or 2nd team plays in the Vodacom Cup which is a third tier competition in South Africa. One would question whether they really do have enough for even two strong S15 sides with their best players competing in Europe.

The Pampas XV is not really Argentina's equivalent to England's "Saxons".

The Argentina A side was basically the side which played in June against Italy and France.

The Argentina B side was basically the side which played in the IRB Nations Cup as the Argentina Jaguars.

The Pampas XV side was basically a team of Argentine based players.

 

[welshglory]

They might have 4 teams, but aren't all their players playing in Europe :? will the ARG teams have enough money for those European players to go and play locally :? i don't think so...

This is hypothetical thought for the future

 

[nickdnz]

It would be fantastic if we could conceive Argentina as part of our Super Rugby tournament. Reducing each of the countries teams by one would allow a tournament with Argentinian participation with 4 teams (Super 16?). I imagine there'd be a lot of machinations in order for this to occur to say nothing of fan sentiment losing some lower performing teams (Lions/Force/Blues?) and would have wider ranging ripple effect on the provinces they occupy but as blue sky dreaming goes, I'm all for it. As an Aussie, I'm all for deepening our talent pool!

This would be the ticket to improving the standard of Argentinian rugby (not to place a value judgement on it) and potentially stop players going to Top14/Aviva.

Reducing it to a 4 team conference isn't really an option to be honest. The worst team in New Zealand atm represents pretty 2/5ths the countries population, and has won three Super Rugby ***les, making the playoffs 5 times. It would be a terrible and stupid decision reducing it to 4 team conferences. You'd be better off increasing it to 20 teams - four conferences - whom play eachother twice - and then a pool system done on seedings from the conferences which a team plays another team from the same pool. eg using the examples someone suggested for the teams.

So every team per conference plays eachother twice (H&A) for 8 games.
Blues 1st
Crusaders 2nd
Chiefs 3rd
Highlanders 4th
Hurricanes 5th

Bulls 1st
Stormers 2nd
Cheetahs 3rd
Sharks 4th
Lions/Kings/WhoKnows5th

Brumbies 1st
Waratahs 2nd
Reds 3rd
Rebels 4th
Western Force 5th

Tucuman 1st
Cordoba 2nd
Rosario 3rd
West Buenos Aires 4th
East Buenos Aires 5th

Then Pool matches

Pool 1
Blues
Stormers
Reds
East Buenos Aires
Waratahs

Pool 2
Bulls
Crusaders
Rebels
Rosario
West Buenos Aires

Pool 3
Brumbies
Chiefs
Cheetahs
Cordoba
Highlanders

Pool 4
Hurricanes
Tucuman
Western Force
Cats/Lions
Sharks

Semi Finals

Finals

That's the only way I could see it working taking travel into account.

 

[BZHopenside]

Radical suggestion here, but why not split the competition up entirely. The Aussies and the Kiwis love their Trans-Tasman matches, but don't seem to really get into the ones against SA teams. Make a NZ/Aus league, maybe add a team in Adelaide and somewhere on the North Island. Then, make a SA/Arg league. Then, both the Kings and the Lions could play in at the top level, no hard feelings.

 

[nickdnz]

Radical suggestion here, but why not split the competition up entirely. The Aussies and the Kiwis love their Trans-Tasman matches, but don't seem to really get into the ones against SA teams. Make a NZ/Aus league, maybe add a team in Adelaide and somewhere on the North Island. Then, make a SA/Arg league. Then, both the Kings and the Lions could play in at the top level, no hard feelings.

Cause it's a bad idea that would cost NZ+Australia a huge amount of their revenue (South Africa has 50 million people compared to New Zealand's 4 million and Australia's 22 million). South Africa provide a huge amount of viewers and sponsorship. I don't think there is any more enthusiasm when it's NZ v Australian teams than when it is NZ v South Africa either. Is that guess work? Some of South Africa's biggest sells have been against NZ teams, so it's not really one way.

Also, why would we want to make the tournament ever more stale? I'm not a huge fan of the conference system where we teams play eachother twice, it gets boring and takes away from the special home 'darby' matches. I much prefer everyone plays everyone in one conference, it's just not a plausible system if you introduce Argentina teams.

Not to put down your suggestion, but I don't see what it would achieve other than ruining the existing competition.

 

[Big Ewis]

Interesting replies...and yeah unfortunately our Top14 as cool as it is isn't quite at the level of Super Rugby, and it may "hold" those Argentinians "back" somehow...
I dunno much about their league, but it doesn't seem of a great importance or relevance, seeing how they're all in France...

And yeah, now that they're in the RChamp starting this year, and if they do expand the SH league to incorporate some Argentine teams in the near future, obviously the only way is UP UP UP...


It kind of raises the question about a full-globe international league really, because us as Europeans are kinda like fish in a bowl, that we are by default the opposite of the S-Hemis., that we are isolated with our top14 and Aviva and 6N and all and that we only evolve off of one another...
We only have so many test matches against SA Aus n NZ, so obviously it's a huge step up each time, and we've been the underdogs since the beginning of time basically !...

 

[nickdnz]

Interesting replies...and yeah unfortunately our Top14 as cool as it is isn't quite at the level of Super Rugby, and it may "hold" those Argentinians "back" somehow...
I dunno much about their league, but it doesn't seem of a great importance or relevance, seeing how they're all in France...

And yeah, now that they're in the RChamp starting this year, and if they do expand the SH league to incorporate some Argentine teams in the near future, obviously the only way is UP UP UP...


It kind of raises the question about a full-globe international league really, because us as Europeans are kinda like fish in a bowl, that we are by default the opposite of the S-Hemis., that we are isolated with our top14 and Aviva and 6N and all and that we only evolve off of one another...
We only have so many test matches against SA Aus n NZ, so obviously it's a huge step up each time, and we've been the underdogs since the beginning of time basically !...

Yeah, I wasn't trying to have a dig at the Top 14, as if Argentina could develop a professional league as good as the Top 14 they'd be well off. It more of a case that not having their own effiecent domestic league/Argentina club teams means they can't make combinations, rely on foreign leagues for gametime, have no clear standard to measure players by (if a player in the Vodacom Cup whoes playing incredibily well better than a player in the Aviva Premiership whoes solid? How do you know?). That sort of stuff is where the issue lies. France and Europe in general has done a great job of raising Argentina into what they are now, but they won't be able to develop to a world power while relying on other countries leagues. You see it in South Africa - players from other leagues than SR come in and no one knows what level they're at compare to SR players and they have no clear combinations.

 

[Big Ewis]

^ hmmm...don't watch SR at all but I'm sure you're right...obviously the "combinations" and habbits they develop together in their respective clubs...
in a sense; but in a sense only; international sides are almost "artificially" brought together it seems, when the players' real know-how seems to be league-club rugby where they play full seasons regularly, and where they're the most comfortable at.

 

[admartian]

I say they do become a world rugby power, but only at what's been suggested already - that they either have a good domestic system; as well as having one or two teams in the SR tournament.

The travel can be broken up in stages if that's more feasible too.

 

[Gena_ZA]

get business and government to spend money that the guys can play in a domestic champs on home soil, this will bring the crowds in a s well
The rest will come by itself as they are natural players with big hearts

 

[Big Ewis]

^ yes, and have already impressed on many occasions...