England Rugby 2018/19 Thread

[Every Time Ref]

I see where you are coming from but I'm unsure if underhill brings enough ball carrying ability at 6 like shields would, which in turn would mean more space/less defenders for billy & Manu. That's my main concern with underhill. Mercer did play well yesterday but would he even start for bath when everyone is fit and available??? I'm unsure if he would. Personally if underhill had to play 6 than I would rather have simmonds at 20 than mercer.

Welcome to the forum.

I've seen some encouraging link play from Underhill this season to be fair, some good support lines and nice offloads - maybe not a primary carrier but definitely offering something valuable in attack. Like WT said his "not tackling" game has definitely improved noticeably.

As for whether Mercer would be first choice for Bath ... he's definitely behind Faletau and Louw, but that's obviously not relevant for the England question!

 

[Which Tyler]

That's absolutely fair on Underhill, and I wouldn't pick him for England just yet.
As for Mercer... He did start when everyone was fit and available last week (and kept Taulupe on the bench by rights this week, having outplayed him in the first 2 matches). Todd has always talked a good game on squad rotation, and walked the walked when he's had the chance, so I don't think anyone is nailed on tonstart when all are fit and healthy. With Garvey stepping forwards a row, I genuinely don't know who'd start at 6 in any potential final, I suspect it's come down to form between Underhill and Mercer, with t'other on the bench. For England though, you can balance things as you like, so for me Underhill starts or sits in then stands, whilst Mercer can start or be ideal off the bench - he can play across the backrow, and he can bring an impact game perfectly suited to the last 20 minutes.

 

[BPM]

That seems to be working on the assumption that Louw is an automatic starter at 7 though, which I’m not sure that he is these days, I can definitely see it being more of a rotation between him and Underhill. I also don’t recall Underhill having played 6 for Bath as yet? Personally I see him as more of a 6 than a 7 but I’m not sure Blackadder (or Eddie Jones) sees it that way.

Comparing Underhill to Mercer is an interesting comparison. Right now, Mercer feels like the more rounded player, with less obvious points to work on IMO. Underhill is undoubtedly an excellent defender and brings a high level of physicality and work rate, but that’s offset by the fact that he’s not currently a great carrier or lineout forward.

That said, I do agree with Every Time Ref’s point that he has shown better support lines and offloading ability than he previously has, so I think he’s showing signs of improving the weaker aspects of his game.

LookIng at our back row options, I’m always surprised at the lack of attention Mark Wilson gets. He is an 8/10 performer for Newcastle in every game and always fronts up regardless of the opposition. He’s not glamorous, but whenever he’s featured for England he’s looked comfortable at test level. Shields’ injury is unfortunate, but I’d much rather give Wilson a run in the side anyway.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

I think it's a shame the way injuries and selection have played out as it would have been nice for Underhill and Wilson to have had more experience at test level by now. I don't see Underhill ever working as a 7 and Jones seems to be looking for a copy of Haskell when he took over, a big hitter and not much else. That is a bit worrying as it would imply he is trying to use the same tactics we began with and hasn't recognised the game has moved on so big hitters alone aren't so effective, you need a pairing with someone else able to make the turnover.

 

[Reiser99]

Not sure about that, the fact that Tom Curry played 7 in all four summer games shows that Jones might be changing his thinking. I won't hold my breath until the AI's. Though your post got me thinking about whether England's defensive tactics have changed after being shown up repeatedly in the 6N's. Have they actually appointed new coaching staff yet or did I miss it?

 

[Scotty]

Alot of talk of mercer filling the 20 shirt but is he really above Sam Simmonds?

Undershil/shields
Curry/simmonds
Billy/hughes

I rate mercer but IMO all them are ahead of him as starters and benchers, post word cup he can go strength to strength and fight for a shirt.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Yeah Simmonds is better imo

In an ideal world I would just bin Hughes right out of the EPS though,
A man can dream

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Mercer has the highest potential as a number 8/6 IMO.

Shame Willis isn't back for a bit because before injury he was better than all those back rowers.

 

[Scotty]

Mercer has the highest potential as a number 8/6 IMO.

Shame Willis isn't back for a bit because before injury he was better than all those back rowers.

Both have huge potential, mercer seems relativly small for an 8 but is strong, hope he fills out and he could have a v high ceiling but for now hes below Simmonds.

Willis reminds of underhill, not his tackling obv but his thing is the breakdown, thats what hes good at and has potential in attack like underhill but i think having underhill 6 willis 7 could lack some power going forward.

But both mercer and willis have real potential but will be post world cup.

 

[MarkyH]

Having a debate about the back-row is great, so much potential and different options.

Robshaw, Haskell, Hughes to be picked for the EPS tho

 

[Geordie]

Ok im extremely biased, but Mark Wilson should have got more game time. He's hard as nails and puts in crazily high consistency every single game.

I have my own reasons why he hasn't...mind I heard someone describe him as a poor mans Chris Robshaw and that annoyed me. However it made me realise how he is viewed by other clubs fans and probably the England selection team. Im more than happy to have a player like that fresh and playing every game for us (the Falcons)

He wont get much more time with England now...

Curry x 2
Mercer
Underhill
Robshaw (may well be slowly pushed out)
Billy V
Simmonds
Possibly Kvesic if his form continues

Seems to be the stable Jones is looking at.

 

[Which Tyler]

Both have huge potential, mercer seems relativly small for an 8 but is strong, hope he fills out and he could have a v high ceiling but for now hes below Simmonds.

Willis reminds of underhill, not his tackling obv but his thing is the breakdown, thats what hes good at and has potential in attack like underhill but i think having underhill 6 willis 7 could lack some power going forward.

But both mercer and willis have real potential but will be post world cup.

FFS Do we have to do this again?

In terms of stat collection - already done for you:
https://www.therugbyforum.com/threa...-england-04-02-2018.40642/page-16#post-887406

Zach Mercer: 190cm; 105 kg (BMI: 29.09)
Sam Simmonds: 184cm; 103kg (BMI: 30.42)

Louis Picamoles: 192cm; 116kg (BMI: 31.47)
Sergio Parisse: 196cm; 112kg (BMI: 29.15)
Taupe Faletau: 189cm; 110kg (BMI: 30.79)
Jamie Heaslip: 192cm; 110kg (BMI: 29.84)
Kieran Read: 193cm; 110kg (BMI: 29.53)
David Pocock: 183cm; 103kg (BMI: 30.76)

Billy Vunipola: 188cm; 130kg (BMI: 36.78)
Nathan Hughes: 196cm; 125kg (BMI: 32.54)
Ben Morgan: 191cm; 116kg (BMI: 31.8)
Thomas Waldron: 185cm; 114kg (BMI: 33.31)

The only reason people seem to think that 110kg is too light for a #8 is Billy Vunipola; who is an absolute physical freak. There is no-one in world rugby even close to him in terms of physical stats without playing front row.
What you're used to skews your perception of "normal" - I have big dogs; normal sized dogs look tiny; I have small cats; normal sized cats look huge. England have a huge #8; all other international #8s look too small in comparison. However, looking at the list of top international #8s, someone like Mercer really isn't giving up much already.
I know, I know, people say that there's absolutely no way Mercer can be 105 kg - because of their perception bias (or they're thinking of him a year ago). Stand him next to Billy; and he's lightweight. Stand him next to Faletau; and he's a little smaller; but there's really not much in it; mostly upper legs- lower torso.

ETA: Different stat.s available for Zach.
RFU = 103kg
ESPN = 104kg
Bath = 105kg
Wiki = 105kg
RugbyProfiles = 108kg

For those interested; Charlie Morgan one of his usual excellent write-ups of Zach a couple of weeks ago: http://subscriber.telegraph.co.uk/r...s-want-see-zach-mercer-back-premiership-duty/

So Mercer's small for an 8 - except all 8s who aren't called Billy - and bigger than the guy who's being suggested instead? really? And that's without him looking to have added a few kg over the off-season. Yes, he carries his bulk lower down - which is where you want it; but that doesn't make it untrue.

 

[Nudger]

Ok im extremely biased, but Mark Wilson should have got more game time. He's hard as nails and puts in crazily high consistency every single game.

I have my own reasons why he hasn't...mind I heard someone describe him as a poor mans Chris Robshaw and that annoyed me. However it made me realise how he is viewed by other clubs fans and probably the England selection team. Im more than happy to have a player like that fresh and playing every game for us (the Falcons)

He wont get much more time with England now...

Curry x 2
Mercer
Underhill
Robshaw (may well be slowly pushed out)
Billy V
Simmonds
Possibly Kvesic if his form continues

Seems to be the stable Jones is looking at.

You can add shields and Rhodes to that list

 

[Geordie]

You can add shields and Rhodes to that list

Yes, I forgot about Shields, he'll be in and around.

Rhodes, id rather pass on and work with the young English lads coming through...im just getting a little tired of all the foreign accents in the England set up.

 

[Geordie]

Zach Mercer has been very vocal about improving his carrying and specifically the collision area.

We know he can fly in the loose and is skilled, but there was evidence this weekend that he's starting to carry effectively in the tight as well. He's young, 6'3 / 6'4 and will put weight on...so it bodes exceptionally well!

He has more dimensions to his game than Billy V ....

 

[Aristodemus]

I think Binny gets a rep for being one dimensional just due to the fact he is so damn good at that one dimension. Anyone running down his channel gets hit hard, that takes an effect over a game, he has a good offload game and gets in a fair few turnovers. Personally if I was looking at changes to our current strongest XV (no idea what that is by the way ) then I myself would be looking at 14 other shirts before number 8. Mercer has huge potential but he isn't worthy of being in the England 23 imo, yet.

 

[MarkyH]

FFS Do we have to do this again?

So Mercer's small for an 8 - except all 8s who aren't called Billy - and bigger than the guy who's being suggested instead? really? And that's without him looking to have added a few kg over the off-season. Yes, he carries his bulk lower down - which is where you want it; but that doesn't make it untrue.

Exactly what you've posted. Size/Weight do not by default make you a better carrier otherwise any fatty could do a job. Some of the best 8s in the world are around Mercers weight and from what I've seen of Mercer, especially this season, is that he's got a lot of strength and technique through the tackle.

Personally, with Billy 8 I'd like to find a shirt for Mercer. I'd still want Curry at 7 which leaves 6 which I really think Mercer could play, and I'm sure he has for Bath (you can correct me). I like Underhill too, and would definitely have Simmonds in the 20 shirt. Tough choices, but probably ones that EJ won't make

 

[Geordie]

It helps of course if everyone stays fit! Which seems to be the biggest struggle of all.

I personally think we're missing a bit of raw power in there..so yes Billy V being fit is a huge bonus...lets hope he stays that way. I also think a fit Underhill would be a great option in the back row. He looks immensely powerful. But then im a fan of Curry aswell...

We have options...its getting the right balance...and that's also influenced by who plays at lock as well.

 

[Geordie]

Where does Robshaw fit in all this? Will he still nail that 6 shirt...or is his time coming to an end for more explosive players?

 

[TRF_Olyy]

His time should have come to an end a while ago tbh