BBC Blog - The origins of the haka

[Saintjay]

While it's nice if our opponents respect it, or are even a bit intimidated by it (at the international level these days, I honestly doubt anyone is), I don't really care if they even ignore it. It's our culture, and it's what we do. These days, we do it more for ourselves and our fans than anything. It's traditional, after all.

Brian Moore made a great comment about the haka it read "if you're intimidated by the haka, and if you let the All Blacks get a psychological advantage from it, then you have no business playing international rugby.

So yeah I think it is great and fans and players love it.

 

[TRF_Cymro]

What aspect of the artical where you expecting a response to Cymro? nothing really new there, good to see someone actually try and explain the "throat cut" gesture for what t was meant to be

edit: never mind, just seen james' comment

Well let's see ...

1. Do NZ agree or disagree with it.
2. Allow other members to discuss it.
3. This is a forum ... where people can discuss rugby topics. Much has been made in the press outside of the NZ bubble about the Kapo O Pango. So I posted the article from the BBC.
4. Some NZ members close off much discussion about the Haka to people outside NZ because we apparently don't understand the NZ culture so therefore it means that people are not allowed to comment on it.
5. The article is also an informative one. Which has been researched.

 

[Kiwiwomble]

those are the worlds to "Ko Niu Tirini"? didn't know Kapa o pango was an update.

Well let's see ...

1. Do NZ agree or disagree with it.
2. Allow other members to discuss it.
3. This is a forum ... where people can discuss rugby topics. Much has been made in the press outside of the NZ bubble about the Kapo O Pango. So I posted the article from the BBC.
4. Some NZ members close off much discussion about the Haka to people outside NZ because we apparently don't understand the NZ culture so therefore it means that people are not allowed to comment on it.
5. The article is also an informative one. Which has been researched.

Sorry, i thought you said you were interested in what NZ members had to say about it....:huh:

I agree it is informative and said it was good they tried to explain the true meaning of the "throat cut" gesture

 

[Saintjay]

After reading this article I have to say that there was nothing new to me in it.

Sounds pretty accurate, why did you want our responses?

I think it was in regards to it being said the haka was over used, should it be kept as some thing special etc, etc.

 

[smartcooky]

those are the worlds to "Ko Niu Tirini"? didn't know Kapa o pango was an update.

Yes, those are the words (and translation) of "Ko Niu Tirini"


Here's Kapa O Pango[TEXTAREA][TABLE="width: 97%, align: center"]
<tbody>[TR]
[TD]Taringa whakarongo!
Kia rite! Kia rite! Kia mau!
Hi!
Ki-a whaka-whenua au i a-hau!
Hi! Au-e, Hi!
Ko Aotearoa e ngu-ngu-ru nei!
Au, Au, Au-ë Ha!
Ko kapa o pango e ngu-ngu-ru nei!
Au, Au, Au-ë Ha!
I ahaha!
Ka tū te ihi-ihi
Ka tū te wana-wana.
Ki runga ki te rangi
E tū iho nei
E tū iho nei. Hi!

Ponga rä!
Kapa o Pango,
Au-e, Hi!

Ponga rä!
Kapa o Pango,
Au-ë, Hi!
HA!!!
[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD] Listen up now!
Get ready! Line up! Hold fast!

Let me be one with the land!

New Zealand is rumbling here!

The team in black is rumbling here!


Face up to the fear
Fight the terror
To the sky above
Fight up there,
high up there. Yeah!

Our shadows fall!
Team in Black!
Yeah!

Silver Fern!
Team in Black!
Yeah!
HAHH![/TD]
[/TR]
</tbody>[/TABLE]

[/TEXTAREA]

 

[Kiwiwomble]

I prefer the original

 

[smartcooky]

I prefer the original

So do I.

 

[ranger]

So do I.

I don't.
For one, Ka mate has nothing to do with rugby or New Zealand as a whole at all. It can also be seen as offensive to some Maori; people forget that the idea of "Maori" as a united homogeneous group is a very recent development. Te Rauparaha spread from Kawhia all the way down to the south island killing and driving away scores of other iwi. Then when Ngati Manaiapoto went looking for him in vengence for recent slaughter, he used cowardly means to escape, performed a haka to rub salt in the wound and now that performance is supposedly ment to represent the entire nation as a whole?

There are Maori from certain iwi around the lower north island that could be forgiven for refusing to perform Ka mate. Perhaps Kapa o Pango is a little contrived, but at least it seeks to be all encompassing and inclusive of the country and the team.

As an aside, i also find Ka Mate to simply be a bit bland and boring. Its a bit irratating that it has has become synonymous with haka internationally, everyone refering to it as "the haka" when it is so flawed.
Its like if Aliens came to earth and hadn't heard of singing before. Then they hear "Bow down" by westside connection and then all planets intergalatically refer to it as "the song", and everyone thinks of it when people think about earth or singing..

 

[Kiwiwomble]

I meant the original version of Kapa o pango, Ko Niu Tirini.

Probably not the right choice of words, not sure which one SC meant now if you look at what i said at that way Ranger :huh:

between Ka mate and Kapa o Pango i much prefer Kapa

 

[Shaggy]

Here's what I think about Peter de Villiers's comments on the over use of the Haka, and it's over use ... it's used a lot these days because there are a lot of test matches played ... the South African national anthem is also sung quite a lot, for the same reason.

... I really don't think its any of his business how many times the haka is performed, any more than it's any of mine to try and limit the number of times the South African national anthem is sung, or how many languages it's sung in.

As for the response to the haka, my opinion is that the IRB should allow a response from the opposing team ... I don't agree with the opposing fans singing through the haka, it's just as disrespectful as singing over top of another nations national anthem in my opinion

 

[peks89]

Here's what I think about Peter de Villiers's comments on the over use of the Haka, and it's over use ... it's used a lot these days because there are a lot of test matches played ... the South African national anthem is also sung quite a lot, for the same reason.

... I really don't think its any of his business how many times the haka is performed, any more than it's any of mine to try and limit the number of times the South African national anthem is sung, or how many languages it's sung in.

As for the response to the haka, my opinion is that the IRB should allow a response from the opposing team ... I don't agree with the opposing fans singing through the haka, it's just as disrespectful as singing over top of another nations national anthem in my opinion

Serious?....I love it when the British Lions, Wales and England sing over the haka/warcry....adds another factor to the haka..makes the haka more fierce when they can still do it under those circumstances...better than seeing em doin their own haka.LMAO

 

[Shaggy]

Serious?....I love it when the British Lions, Wales and England sing over the haka/warcry....adds another factor to the haka..makes the haka more fierce when they can still do it under those circumstances...better than seeing em doin their own haka.LMAO

Yes, seriously ... just my opinion though ... i'm not big on booing player when they kick goals, or spiting on people either, but I know i'm in a minority there too (particularly the booing part)

... The original post asked my opinion (not what I think the opinion of all/most New Zealanders) , and that's what it is

 

[nickdnz]

Just read the article. Seems relatively accurate, although as smartcookie pointed out, Kapa O Pango was taken from theKo Niu Tirini . . . I guess it's good for people outside New Zealand to take the time to find out about it. Kiwi's need to cool down a bit about these threads. The World Cup is in New Zealand and a part of that is a rectal examination of our culture. We were always going to be in the spotlight, so we need to show a bit more patience.

 

[TRF_heineken]

It's a very interesting thread this, thanx Cymro...

if anyone are still noticing anything PDV says, then they should seriously get to grips with themselves, he's an idiot!

my 2 cents about the Haka... I love it!! i get chills when they do it and I'm at the game! it brings up a whole new dimension of participation between the AB's the other team and the fans which is lacking in some games.

I was at the tri-nations match last year at Soccer City in Soweto when the Boks played the All Blacks and there were over 95 000 people in the stand...

as usual we sang Ole Ole Ole during the Haka, we couldn't hear one single word from the Haka as the crowd joined together and in a way supported the Boks to show we're not intimidated by the Haka. I was so Amped after that and enjoyed the whole game up until Dagg crossed over to win the game for the Kiwi's...

Bottom line, I'll never get "used to it" as PDV said. it's a great phenomenon that goes in conjunction with the tradition of Rugby and to play it down, or criticize it won't do any good, and the majority of rugby fans will agree...

I love tradition and this one should stay, just like springboks winning games with drop goals, and England have more foreign players in their team...

 

[Kiwiwomble]

Well said

 

[james5000]

Well let's see ...

1. Do NZ agree or disagree with it.
2. Allow other members to discuss it.
3. This is a forum ... where people can discuss rugby topics. Much has been made in the press outside of the NZ bubble about the Kapo O Pango. So I posted the article from the BBC.
4. Some NZ members close off much discussion about the Haka to people outside NZ because we apparently don't understand the NZ culture so therefore it means that people are not allowed to comment on it.
5. The article is also an informative one. Which has been researched.

Ok fair enough, what are your views? I'd just like to hear to be honest

 

[TRF C A Iversen]

Ok fair enough, what are your views? I'd just like to hear to be honest

Give Cymro a break. He just posts up a lot of rugby articles for people to comment on. He posts articles on many sports hundreds of times a year. He's put this article up as an opportunity to discuss it and maybe shed some light on a new aspect of the Haka.

It's been a little bit overly defensive from some within this thread.

 

[james5000]

Give Cymro a break. He just posts up a lot of rugby articles for people to comment on. He posts articles on many sports hundreds of times a year. He's put this article up as an opportunity to discuss it and maybe shed some light on a new aspect of the Haka.

It's been a little bit overly defensive from some within this thread.

He might have something good to say, I would just like to hear.

I wasn't attacking or defending or anything like that. He hasn't really commented yet, could be enlightening.

 

[TRF_Ezequiel]

Is Peter de Villiers right? Yes
Should he have said it? Not this way

I think the thought behind the whole Haha debate is its value. When the All Blacks do it, its absolutely amazing but when marching bands start doing it, it goes too far. On a side note: I think it would be more special if they only performed it on tour. Now it is becoming more of a formality in stead of tradition. I don't mind them doing the Haka at the RWC though. It's amazing but it would be more breathtaking if we only saw it once or twice a year.

 

[smartcooky]

I don't.
For one, Ka mate has nothing to do with rugby or New Zealand as a whole at all. It can also be seen as offensive to some Maori; people forget that the idea of "Maori" as a united homogeneous group is a very recent development. Te Rauparaha spread from Kawhia all the way down to the south island killing and driving away scores of other iwi. Then when Ngati Manaiapoto went looking for him in vengence for recent slaughter, he used cowardly means to escape, performed a haka to rub salt in the wound and now that performance is supposedly ment to represent the entire nation as a whole?

I meant I preferred the original "Ko Niu Tirini" over its modified version, "Kapa O Pango"

[/quote]There are Maori from certain iwi around the lower north island that could be forgiven for refusing to perform Ka mate. Perhaps Kapa o Pango is a little contrived, but at least it seeks to be all encompassing and inclusive of the country and the team. [/quote]


Further north. The Ngati Maniapoto and Waikato tribes were the ones that Te Rauparaha escaped from by hiding in a Kumara pit under the skirt of the wife of Te Wharerangi, the chief of the Tuwharetoa tribe.