England 6 Nation squad 2024

[TRF_Olyy]

Because he's available now and hasn't signed for anyone yet
You don't drop someone based on media speculation even if he is likely to leave

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Also who would you use it on?

 

[Which Tyler]

Why has he selected him when the spot in training could be used by someone available next year.

Because he's available now.
Because he's good enough to be in the squad.
Because he may be available next year.


Worth noting, as a big critic of Steve Borthwick, just because SB makes a decision doesn't make that decision wrong or incomprehensible by definition.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

We’ll never know what private conversations went on. But on the face of it would have been neater to have drawn a line after the RWC.

Not saying he’s not been worth a spot as a squad member, but England were in thrall to him for too long and it’s time to move on. Not an age thing, simply an effectiveness thing - Aki’s older but still pretty key to Ireland.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Manu's nowhere near as bad as people think he is, tbf - miles off his prime but still international quality. Just cause he's not in the conversation for best centre in the world anymore doesn't mean he's on the scrap heap.

I wouldn't be surprised if they wanted him in the squad for training/environment purposes as much as playing - obv if Lawrence went down injured I think he'd likely slot in before Dingwall, but he brings a ton of experience, a different style of play etc.

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

For information purposes, F smith wasn’t available for the Ireland game with a calf injury and Pearson is still not fit with a groin injury so couldn’t be called in to the squad.

Wonder if Marcus smith would have been on the bench for Ireland if Finn was fit.

 

[Rugbyfan564]

I wonder how many played who played for England in 2023 and/or 2024 will be in France (Or been in France and returned) by the end of 2025.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Not really 6N related but didn't want to resurrect an old RWC thread

There's an article in the telegraph today about Manu and he confirms what we were saying in the Samoa game thread (that he broke his hand so badly the bone came through the skin)
He had it re-set and played again 8 days later - rugby players are a different breed

Article also says today will be his final test, but doesn't elaborate - so I'm guessing he's going to announce it after the game. Says when he tore his Achilles he wanted to get back and get to 50 caps, today will be his 60th

 

[AngloScotsHybrid]

England have won the Under 20s six nations for the second time in 4 years. Shows England do produce talented players. Its the management of the senior team that is the problem.

 

[Scotty]

So who are we not going to see again? And who will start to be phased out? With who replacing them?

What do we think?

 

[TRF_Olyy]

So who are we not going to see again? And who will start to be phased out? With who replacing them?

What do we think?

Tough to say

Manu is going to take himself out of contention (Dingwall straight back in?) - think Care said he's going to go until the wheels fall off

Honestly don't think we'll see that much change this summer, think it'll be November when we start looking at who's behind Marler/Cole/Care etc

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

More wins than in a while, some new players blooded and glimpses of a different style of play.

Has to be a step forward although still far from convincing.

Four of our games were decided by 3 points or less. All could have gone different ways on different days affecting the way we look at the tournament.

Not really sure where we stand. Ire and Fra aren’t where they were at a few months ago. Wal are pants, Sco keep flattering to deceive with only Ita on a definite upward trajectory. I said let’s assess where we are at the year end and stand by that.

 

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

Don’t have time to write too much but honestly, I’m happy with Six Nations. There’s stuff to dislike but overall we’ve blooded a fair few new talented players and played much better rugby than we have done in recent times. For now, Borthwick has my backing.

After all, we did beat the new super power that is Italy.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

I’m happy with this 6N’s but I hope Borthwick gives some players a chance with this new attacking mindset
Because the first 3 games we where shittttttt


Like Dingwall, I judged him on those games but it’s clear Borthwick had a big change of plan and unless it revolves around Lawrence which it better not have he should give some others another go with attacking rugby

Ford is a perfect example everyone wanted him dropped, have this as the end of his England career. But it was clear he was playing to orders

 

[Booboobang]

I'm happy with this 6N's but I hope Borthwick gives some players a chance with this new attacking mindset
Because the first 3 games we where shittttttt


Like Dingwall, I judged him on those games but it's clear Borthwick had a big change of plan and unless it revolves around Lawrence which it better not have he should give some others another go with attacking rugby

Ford is a perfect example everyone wanted him dropped, have this as the end of his England career. But it was clear he was playing to orders

I agree, somewhat excited to see how it evolves from here because there was clear progress. I hate the idea that you cant implement an attack before everything else and think its nonsense, but it does seem that is what they were actually doing.

I am happy for Ford though, got to show his quality, Shame Farrell didn't get to show out when not being told to kick everything. I was really happy for Wiggelsworth; I knew he was a decent attack coach from his stint at Leicester interim and finally got to do something.

Also, I get people wanting shiny new toys, but ford is only 31, he could easily make it to the next WC I wouldnt be cutting bait untill he showed he cant do it anymore, especially since there isnt really a prem tested option outside smith who is in the squad anyway. Give finn smith time to learn in the prem and europe.

 

[Booboobang]

Tough to say

Manu is going to take himself out of contention (Dingwall straight back in?) - think Care said he's going to go until the wheels fall off

Honestly don't think we'll see that much change this summer, think it'll be November when we start looking at who's behind Marler/Cole/Care etc

I tend to agree, pressure of a tour isn't really great for bedding players in, and I buy into stability being best for implementing new concepts on attack and defense, dont think we see any wholesale turonver of the squad in this cycle, just gradual evolution.

Personally, I would like to see some slight changes with the middle of the squad players who have been given the chances gone in favour of youngsters though. Get some of the young props in the strength training environment and some minutes of the bench. Drop Daly out and give Roebuck or Murley those minutes. Maybe also bring in some of the guys like tuima, pepper, pearson, fuisala, barbeary (take your pick) since backrow and locks seem pretty set for starters and seems a good opportunity for experience.

 

[Which Tyler]

Ford is a perfect example everyone wanted him dropped, have this as the end of his England career. But it was clear he was playing to orders

Define "everyone". He's still got plenty of cheerleaders here.
For myself, I wanted him given the 6N off, to rest and rehab his chronic injury(s) which were probably responsible for his poor form post-RWC, whilst giving the 2 Smiths a full international window to show what they've got without anyone "holding their hand".
Which is not "wanting him dropped" or "the end of his England career". It was always clear that he was playing to orders - orders that had been put in place built around Farrell, whether at 10 or 12 - which had been wasting Ford's talent for the best bst part of a decade.


As for the 6N in retrospect. I'm happy. Far happier than I expected to be.
I felt that Sexy Beast was always the wrong man for the job, too inexperienced and too stats driven (or more to the point, driven by the wrong stats). I didn't buy into the theory that he had 1 plan for the RWC, and a completely different plan for the post-RWC rebuild. I expected to play dull, brainless kick-ball and lose to Ireland Scotland and France without putting up much of a fight, and to maybe scrape past Wales and Italy whilst handing them the "moral victory".
I was wrong (well, maybe not that last bit).
I can see a plan, in defence, attack and transition. It an intelligent plan, and requires very different things from the players. It's a plan that Farrell would absolutely fail at implementing, but suits Ford and FSmith to the ground, and should be well within MSmith's capacity without wasting his point of difference.

We've blooded some youngsters, found a functional centre partnership for the first time since Farrell and Joseph (like it or not, they were functional together), and which shows so much more than that combination. We've found a pair of wingers who look at home on the international stage and fit the new gameplay. We've got a proper alternative at fullback (previously capped, but also previously thrown on the scrap heap).

If, but and maybe... If we'd arrived at the 6N with Martin fit, and with Underhill and Lawrence having a couple of matches under their belt since injury, and maybe Ford having had those injections a week or two earlier... We could have been properly challenging for the title. Give us those, and we're much more comfortable in the opening 2 weeks, arriving in Scotland with confidence and a bit of a groove, and it would be a far more positive campaign.

Of course, there's much still to do. The defence needs at least one more international window to get everyone used to it, probably 2 windows. We still need a proper attack coach (from what I hear, Wiggles is more kicking and skills than attacking shapes - if I'm hearing wrong, then I'm happy enough with him). We need a few improvements in personnel (limited by what's available) as we've too many stop-gaps. But I do have confidence that there is a plan, and that it's a decent one (and using decent stats). Whether it'll be good enough to beat NZ and South Africa (or France and Ireland once they've settled themselves again) is a different question, but I do believe it's good enough to give them something to worry about... In about a year's time.

 

[TommiG88]

Generally happy with the 6N. I came in with no optimism and excitement but I certainly got some in those last 2 games.

Too much to think about currently regarding changes. But there was a glimmer of hope and a few diamonds coming through.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

Because the first 3 games we where shittttttt

We were.

And then a narrow squeak against an aging post Sexton Ireland and another tight one against a French team in a state of flux - haven’t done the maths but suspect we had more experience. France obviously missing some stars and will be better next year.

But all this stuff about attack being the cherry on the top has been proven to be nonsense. It’s just mindset although a semi competent 9 and a pack with some go forward do help.

We’re in a better place than at the start of the tournament. IFW, CCS, Freeman etc etc give grounds for optimism but the talent’s largely always been there. We do still have issues though, notably next generation front row.

Post RWC’s always a bit of a shakedown year. We’ve had a couple of tight games against losing quarter finalists, let’s see how we now get on against the SH big boys.

Fair to give SB some pelters for the first 3 games and some credit for the last 2. But in taking that credit his “I got a hospital pass, we we weren’t good at anything, not fit enough, everyone else’s fault” mantra now falls away.

 

[BPM]

I’ll be curious to see how NZ look under Robertson. Obviously he’ll be very familiar with a lot of the Crusaders players, but he’ll still be a ‘new coach’ at this level. They’ll also have a bit of post-RWC churn in playing personnel so it’s hard to know what to expect. It might be a benefit playing them at a point of change.